Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Goblin Lackey
Standstill
Natural Order
I don't know that I agree with that. In vintage you're bleeding slots for cards you must play to compete (thus you end up on the same short list of most efficient wincons); in standard and modern you kinda just play the best good stuff b/c that's really the only strategy that works. In legacy, speaking only of top blue decks, you're maxing out at Ponder/Brainstorm/FoW as the most similar decks have to be - the maindeck similarities completely stop there between say grixis Delver, SnS, and miracles.
You can't really play any format other than legacy with a shared core in such completely different ways - and this is only one competitive core. Other formats have different cores, but there really aren't equally good ways to play them differently and the overall amount of [competitive] cores are still finite. Note also how a core like Ponder/BS/FoW doesn't really dictate at all how a game will be won or lost; you still have to choose a method and insert the pieces - this is also especially true of the Tomb/City/Chalice core. If you break down legacy you will mostly see Ponder/BS/FoW vs Tomb/City/Chalice vs Cavern/Vial vs Loam/Mox; even if this is all that could compete in legacy, there would be so many decks that correct pet-deck/meta-calls would result in winning strategies. That pet-deck can be an iteration of one of these cores, but the fundamental cores of the legacy field you have to plan against isn't really that varied...and the legacy card pool is plenty large enough to provide creative space for a rogue archetype to target the majority of what it would expect to see.
Balanced representations of blue stew iterations is the only way to really push out innovation; it's just never going to happen b/c the other three cores of legacy are too good against blue stew to not play if that's what you expect to see.
@Fox - truly an excellent post. You have described Legacy in a nutshell.
I think a lot of people would be happier to see another Cavern/Vial deck. Apart from the relatively small meta-share, D&T is too prison for a lot of players, and Fish runs CotV and Island.
This is rich.
You'd think a 2 deck format would quickly become a 1 deck format (unless the decks were a perfect even match). Moreover, I can't imagine everybody playing just 2 decks and that not being 100% exploitable to a savvy meta-decker.
Please tell us what 2 decks you are envisioning? I could use another laugh.
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Yeah that's an interesting one Crimhead. I'm certainly guilty of always playing Deadguy Ale no matter the meta, but I usually do put up decent results. Which at least to me justifies my decision.
I think the format is fine. I think some people just want to ban anything they don't like, rather than think what is healthy for the format. Deathrite is super powerful but it didn't kill Reanimator or lands at all. They had to make adjustments for sure but those decks can still put up results. And I hate True Name Nemesis and Show and tell but Neither are ban worthy.
In fact, I don't think anything is ban worthy and they could unban a few cards. Frantic Search and Earthcraft for starters.
I do agree that Modern is THE format if you want to brew. You can really build a pile that people haven't seen and do well with it. However, in order to do that WOTC had to ban a ton of cards. This is the format that banned Wild Nacatl of all things. And most cantrips as well are gone too and a lot of the really good mana acceleration.
It's so amusing reading this thread. Why do Legacy players feel the need to talk about things they don't even pretend to follow as if they know what they're talking about?
Yeah, dude, like that deck that just won the Pro Tour... the one that just mashes together random good cards like Codex Shredder, Lantern of Insight, Pyxis of Pandemonium and the like. You know, just random good stuff. Pretty similar to the deck that got 3rd place that also just mashes together the best good stuff in its colors like Hollow One, Goblin Lore, Burning Inquiry, and Flamewake Phoenix just because those cards are good in any deck. 2nd place was just more of the same with Bedlam Reveler, Young Pyromancer, and even 1 Manamorphose (the red/green version of the cantrip cartel!).
Sarcasm quotient maxed out before I could get to decks 4-8.
You made my day.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I think it's more that people want to experiment with other engines. Fox's post was excellent, but it's interesting how it almost illustrates the loss of GSZ or Dark Confidant as viable engine cards on their own -- though they do appear in concert with the other engines in the format. 4 BS 4 Ponder 4 Force plus the occasional addition of other cantrips like Probe is so much deck space. Most of the most popular wincons in the format were printed from 2010-2013 -- it's not like you can even play old classics here or exploit newly available interactions with new releases.
I think it's less that people want to try new engines (I prefer the term 'core'), and more that people want their pet engine/core in a tier-1 deck.
Such players tend to be extremely biased. In the Maverick heyday, Legacy did not have a competitive Loam/Mox deck nor a competitive CotV/Sol-Land deck. People who think that era was better than today are clearly not interested in diversity of archetype cores - but rather the viability of their favourite core. Then they say all sorts of ridiculous things which are hyperbolic, wrong, and conversational dead-ends. It would be infuriating if I actually cared.
This crowd is also incredibly particular. Elves is an unfair combo deck. Aggro Loam runs CotV, Mox, and Loam. People want a GSZ deck that is fair and doesn't run CotV; and Legacy can never be healthy without such a deck in the top tier.
Edit - I know there are people who are simply bored with the styles of play in the current meta. I have no beef with this, and I'm sorry that established players are not enjoying the format. But when people try to elevate this opinion with claims that Legacy lacks diversity that's just annoying.
Supremacy 2020 is the modern era game of nuclear brinksmanship! My blog:
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You can play Lands.dec in EDH too! My primer:
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I know this is a suuuuuper late reply, but:
I mean, I play DDFT and work out piles (on the fly) fairly regularly, albeit in Legacy, not Vintage where Stephen Menendian piles it up. It's not that hard. Anybody resolving Doomsday should already know what their pile will be before they cast the spell.
I'm not saying DDFT isn't a difficult deck to pilot, but I think the actual level of difficulty is a bit misconstrued from people who care not to understand it's mechanics.
Phoenix Ignition has already explained why you're deck wrong about Modern, but this makes little sense as a complaint about Standard either. Now I'm not saying Standard has been good or anything, but its problem has been the exact opposite of goodstuff being the best strategy. They print super-powerful synergies without anything else to fight them with. Look at the most recent round of bans... what was regarded as so overpowered it needed to be banned? There was Energy, a deck based all around the synergies that accompany Energy. And there was also Ramunap Red, which is basically just the newest iteration of Red Deck Wins. Is Red Deck Wins goodstuff now?
Last edited by Crimhead; 02-06-2018 at 07:22 AM.
Supremacy 2020 is the modern era game of nuclear brinksmanship! My blog:
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You can play Lands.dec in EDH too! My primer:
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It's still around, especially in the Mid Atlantic region. People here love their Loam decks.
The biggest problem is that Czech Pile is a pretty crappy matchup. The deck trying to grind out opponents with Punishing Fire and Wasteland recursion looks pretty stupid when your opponent has a Leovold in play. The fact that they also play main deck Kolagahn's Command means you cant even cheese them game 1 with a fast Chalice. Fatal Push killing all your threats is also real bad too. If Miracles and Grixis Delver can beat Pile's meta share down a little, then I think you'll start seeing it pop up a lot more. I imagine Aggro Loam would murder that new Miracles deck now that they cant just lock out your punishing fires with counter top.
Pauper is plenty healthy. The Tron decks are actual decks (Primarily UR control, UG turbofog and GR Ramp (2nd example)) that do big things but don't get to go T3 Karn, gg, but Tron still gives them filthy-feeling advantage and a preposterous ease in casting big bombs. Cantrip cartel is represented in Mono-U and UR Skred Delver, red and green have traditionally been well-represented in Stompy and Burn but recently Elves and Monoblack Control have had a resurgence and monoW Heroic has become a thing. The only thing the format really lacks is some more really competitive combo decks. Even then, the fringe stuff (Inside Out, Familiars, UR Fiend) has gotten better than the jokes they used to be. There's diversity in strategic archetype, in colors used, in amount of colors used, in engines, in threats. It's not exactly a brewer's paradise anymore, the power level's been lifted pretty high, but the existing stuff offers plenty of choice. A lot of it probably happens because the mana is kinda crappy - you need efficiency, and splashing a color is a huge cost in a way it is in probably no other constructed format.
I hated basically every banning in Pauper to date, a lot of them weren't really necessary and killed off really fun decks, yet the format is in a way better spot right now than it's ever been before. Modern's apparently in a similar place.
Originally Posted by Lemnear
You've missed the point of core strategies and defining a format. I would assume these red decks you've listed off all run Faithless Looting, and that would be a better example of a core strategy. However, this is modern...so if the Looting core begins to enable multiple competitive strategies (particularly graveyard-independent strategies as well) to the point that a player assessing modern has to have a plan for approaching the diverse archetypal ideas of the Looting core....then I'd expect a pretty quick ban. The reason you can list off new decks proving modern's brand of diversity goes hand in hand with banning off any cards that would give the format central identity (meaning being able to inject itself into the meta-game from multiple different angles).
Modern is diverse in the sense that isolated strategies generally have cards central to their deck's specific function only. In modern and standard you see nearly 1:1 ratio of a group of core cards to one specific optimal wincon/idea of how a win will be pursued. Modern has a growing card pool and more importantly insular strategies, so of course we would expect to see new decks (they are all concerned with their own engine rather than disruption not called discard & removal). Look at the amount of slots Lantern needs to 'do its thing' - the sheer volume of the cards it needs to function are all tied into the wincon; the strength of its strategy cannot be shared. In the case of Hyper-Sluff, the only outlets for heavy employing of draw&discard are already knowable. Keep adding in modern decks and you realize all the format really is, is an agglomeration of essentially random matchups - so yes it's diverse....but in an unnatural way, ensured by doing things like banning DRS, SFM, P-Fire, Depths, Ponder, etc.
As @Crimhead points out my use of "good stuff" has more to do with most ideal rather than only Baleful Strix analogues.
@Lord Seth I'm not complaining about standard or modern, I'm pointing out that these formats are particularly known to ban cards which become cores through use by multiple archetypes. The idea that a [proactive] core does not belong to one deck/strategy alone is not native to standard and modern players.
So many words but so little said. Do you even have a point or are you just rambling?
"In standard and modern you kinda just play the best good stuff b/c that's really the only strategy that works" this claim has been totally BTFO. Saying people missed the point is obviously moving the goalposts. If you suddenly redefine 'good stuff' to mean 'the best card for the deck' rather than 'individually powerful, non-synergy dependent card' then you've destroyed all meaning of the phrase, obviously every constructed deck in mtg history has tried to be as 'good' as possible by playing 'stuff', so what are you even trying to say?
Allow me to rephrase your argument in a different but entirely equivalent way
Wow, a totally non-controversial and unoriginal summary of why cards get banned in all formatsI would assume these red decks you've listed off all run Faithless Looting, and that would be a better example of a core card. However, this is modern...so if Faithless Looting (there is no 'Looting Core', there is no other overlap between Mardu Reveler or Dredge or RB Hollow One) begins to encompass a dominant share of the metagame (particularly graveyard-independent strategies as well) to the point that a player assessing modern has to expect to play against it the vast majority of the time....then I'd expect a pretty quick ban. The reason you can list off new decks proving modern's brand of diversity goes hand in hand with banning off any cards that are so powerful that the vast majority of people would play them.
"Bans are unnatural REEEEEEEE"Keep adding in modern decks and you realize all the format really is, is an agglomeration of essentially random matchups - so yes it's diverse....but in an unnatural way, ensured by doing things like banning DRS, SFM, P-Fire, Depths, Ponder, etc.
Supremacy 2020 is the modern era game of nuclear brinksmanship! My blog:
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I wouldn't.
But I'm not 100% sure that we'll continue to get 8+ Legacy players once/month in the years to come. If I want to play anything that resembles Legacy in 5 or 10 years, Pauper might be the best bet.
Also there may be deck options not viable in Legacy like Ponza or MBC, with less saturation of good-stuff midrange and tempo. It almost looks like a cross between Legacy and '94.
Supremacy 2020 is the modern era game of nuclear brinksmanship! My blog:
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You can play Lands.dec in EDH too! My primer:
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You're lucky my sarcasm has recharged.
Faithless looting is obviously the best card in the format and it clearly shows how your original point is correct even though that wasn't your point at all. I mean just check out that deck in 4th place, UR Pyromancer. It also plays the best red cantrip, Faithless Looting. Although to be fair it plays the blue versions of that card instead (Serum Visions, Opt, and Ancestral Vision) and actually runs 0 Faithless Lootings, but that's pretty close to your argument too so let me fix it for you:
Ah, once again, right you are! It's pretty obvious when you think about it and take decks 5-8 into account. Two 5 color humans, Abzan, and Jund Death's Shadow. Jund Death's Shadow runs the colorless cantrip cartel of Mishra's Bauble (which is completely homogenizing the metagame with it's 8 total appearances in top 8) and green's obvious best of Traverse the Ulvenwald. Abzan is running maindeck *overwhelmingly best strategy of any cantrips* Nihil Spellbomb, but I think we all know Dark Confidant is basically just a *best strategy cantrip* in a wig. Lastly, the biggest cantrippy deck of all, 5 color humans, uses the most ubiquitous cantrip of Horizon Canopy! Can you believe there were 8 copies of this card in top 8? Metagame homogenization incoming!
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