All B/R update speculation.

[Crimhead]

Yeah, for banned-cards I really expect something more powerful things. The affinity cards, Stoneforge, and JTMS were so much more impactful on the game overall. It shows how little Standard resembles the previous state of the game.

Yup.

In the past a ban in Standard meant a broken card. Nowadays the card is fine but the format is broken.

[Barook]

The design cycle is what, 1.5 years out? I wonder if we'll see anything else completely retarded come out before they "change" their process.

Having to ban 3 cards or whatever now is a serious design issue in such a small format.

They included answers in Amonkhet after seeing PT Kaladesh, so they got faster/more flexible.

There's already been 4 cards banned in Standard this year. The funny thing is that it's not a case of the cards being power crept up too far, these cards were specifically broken for Standard. (iirc) Last time we had bannings there was Caw Blade and the banned cards were so powerful that they became eternal format staples. And I know Emrakul, the Promised End has shown some playability in the eternal formats but it's not that crazy. The cat and copter will probably not ever be big cards in other formats where they are much more vulnerable.

It's an interesting situation and the problem is that they managed Standard so poorly that there weren't good deck choices and "answer" cards to counter the dominant strategies. It's good that older formats aren't being hurt badly by new broken cards though.

That's what you get when you dumb down the game so much that just somewhat powerful cards to broken in half.

Patrick Sullivan on CED talks theorized it had to do with internal WotC politics and after two days the Pro ban side was able to force the no ban side to capitulate because of the outcry. I also agree with his assessment that the explanation (about MTGO data) is almost certainly a lie and very concerning if true.

I wonder how much the new CEO is responsible for that. WotC was always known for this kind of shit, but it was less obvious than now.

[CptHaddock]

Yup.

In the past a ban in Standard meant a broken card. Nowadays the card is fine but the format is broken.

Weren't most standard bannings roughly the same? I feel like if JTMS was printed now he'd still be broken but way less than when caw was a thing. Seems like the splinter twin combo in a format where your interaction is only Magma Spray or killing them it's pretty broken. The best solution is to just print answers to things whether it be creatures, walkers, whatever.

[Lord Seth]

There's already been 4 cards banned in Standard this year. The funny thing is that it's not a case of the cards being power crept up too far, these cards were specifically broken for Standard. (iirc) Last time we had bannings there was Caw Blade and the banned cards were so powerful that they became eternal format staples. And I know Emrakul, the Promised End has shown some playability in the eternal formats but it's not that crazy. The cat and copter will probably not ever be big cards in other formats where they are much more vulnerable.

It's not even just Caw-Blade. Affinity was a great deck in Extended when it got banned out of Standard (not sure if it was a thing in Legacy then, but I don't think Legacy was much of a thing then, having only recently been split from Vintage).

Shortly before that was Skullclamp, which was Skullclamp. Moving on.

We have to go back a decent number of years before we get to the previous Standard bannings, the infamous Tempest-Urza's Standard. I'm not sure about Urza's Saga. Oh, of the 10 cards banned, 8 of them were banned in larger formats as well, but I'm not sure if Recurring Nightmare and Fluctuator, the cards banned in Standard but not elsewhere, were good enough in Extended or Type 1/1.5, anyone know?

In regards to bannings/restrictions before that, all of them bit the dust in at least one other format around the time with the exception of Hymn to Tourach, but that card is still a decent force in Legacy.

It's an interesting situation and the problem is that they managed Standard so poorly that there weren't good deck choices and "answer" cards to counter the dominant strategies. It's good that older formats aren't being hurt badly by new broken cards though.

Like I've said before, the bannings after Urza's Saga were targeting specific cards or strategies that got through in being too powerful. Once they were removed, things went back to normal. Affinity was overpowered, but Standard didn't need more bannings after they dispensed with that deck. Same with Caw-Blade. Now they banned a bunch of cards and then Standard was still a problem. Part of that is the fact they let this combo through, but even without it, it seems like Standard was still in a problematic place.

[UnderwaterGuy]

Weren't most standard bannings roughly the same? I feel like if JTMS was printed now he'd still be broken but way less than when caw was a thing. Seems like the splinter twin combo in a format where your interaction is only Magma Spray or killing them it's pretty broken. The best solution is to just print answers to things whether it be creatures, walkers, whatever.

No, I don't think most Standard bans are like these at all. Look at the list of previous banned-in-Standard cards: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...ist-2015-07-13 I am definitely assuming that JTMS would be broken in Standard right now if these other 4 cards needed bans. Of course his Brainstorm synergy with Squadron Hawk was part of that broken deck but we play JTMS in Legacy and Vintage juuust fine without any birds to combo him with. There are other factors of course, I have no idea what removal they're running in Stnadard but I'm assuming it is weak and Jace would be very powerful.

The majority of those cards are still very powerful in Legacy/Vintage/EDH and some are even banned in Legacy. There are only a few cards that have been banned in Standard that aren't relevant today and those that aren't still relevant to us(I'm thinking of Mind Over Matter) were still very overpowered at the time and are powerful even if they aren't ban-worthy in Legacy or Vintage or EDH. Standard bannings used to be for cards that were mistakenly made overpowered but that's not happening with the current 4 bans.

In the past 10 years there have only been 6 cards banned in Standard and 4 of them are basically slightly above average power cards that were banned just in 2017. There is something deeply wrong with how wotc is managing this game and it can't be denied. I haven't played Standard since Lorwyn so the impact on that format is not important to me but it's a clear and objective measure of how bad the current team at wotc is at their job. I don't care about playing Standard but it's worrying to see how inept the people that control the game I love are.

And it is novel to see these non-broken spells being banned all of a sudden.

edit: @Lord Seth, Recurring Nightmare is still banned in EDH even if it's not seeing play in the 60 card formats. The card doesn't make the cut by today's standard for power but it's no joke.

[Zombie]

We have to go back a decent number of years before we get to the previous Standard bannings, the infamous Tempest-Urza's Standard. I'm not sure about Urza's Saga. Oh, of the 10 cards banned, 8 of them were banned in larger formats as well, but I'm not sure if Recurring Nightmare and Fluctuator, the cards banned in Standard but not elsewhere, were good enough in Extended or Type 1/1.5, anyone know?

Recurring Nightmare's seen some play in Nic Fit a few years back if memory serves, and is a staple in GBW value reanimator decks in all sorts of Highlander formats where it can do hilarious things with stuff like Karmic Guide, Zur, Titans, Thragtusk and the like (were half of the stuff I listed not on EDH ban list :P)

In the past 10 years there have only been 6 cards banned in Standard and 4 of them are basically slightly above average power cards that were banned just in 2017. There is something deeply wrong with how wotc is managing this game and it can't be denied. I haven't played Standard since Lorwyn so the impact on that format is not important to me but it's a clear and objective measure of how bad the current team at wotc is at their job. I don't care about playing Standard but it's worrying to see how inept the people that control the game I love are.

And it is novel to see these non-broken spells being banned all of a sudden.

I mean, hell, just look at TS-Lor era decks:

Lark-Blink
Demigod Red
GR Snow Ramp (GR ramp was interesting once upon a time O_o)
GB Elf Rock
Doran Rock
Faeries

Would these be terribly likely to care? Like, yeah, nice combo you have there. Here's a Teferi's Moat on white. Have fun with those cats? Or idk just shove a Flame Javelin at the cat's face. Or Cryptic all the cats down because meh. If you even have the pieces in your hand, Thoughtseize is a card...

[Lord Seth]

Recurring Nightmare's seen some play in Nic Fit a few years back if memory serves, and is a staple in GBW value reanimator decks in all sorts of Highlander formats where it can do hilarious things with stuff like Karmic Guide, Zur, Titans, Thragtusk and the like (were half of the stuff I listed not on EDH ban list :P)

I wasn't really talking about a few years ago. I mean back around the time Recurring Nightmare and Fluctuator were banned in Standard.

I mean, hell, just look at TS-Lor era decks:

Lark-Blink
Demigod Red
GR Snow Ramp (GR ramp was interesting once upon a time O_o)
GB Elf Rock
Doran Rock
Faeries

Would these be terribly likely to care? Like, yeah, nice combo you have there. Here's a Teferi's Moat on white. Have fun with those cats? Or idk just shove a Flame Javelin at the cat's face. Or Cryptic all the cats down because meh. If you even have the pieces in your hand, Thoughtseize is a card...

Well, the deck could win without the combo, which was part of its power. Still, I do wonder how the CopyCat combo would fare against past Standard decks. It'd actually be pretty funny if it turns out to be really mediocre against past decks...

[Lava Snacks]

I'm convinced, we're storming the inepts at WotC. Violent overthrow is the only option.

[Kanti]

I wasn't really talking about a few years ago. I mean back around the time Recurring Nightmare and Fluctuator were banned in Standard.

Well, the deck could win without the combo, which was part of its power. Still, I do wonder how the CopyCat combo would fare against past Standard decks. It'd actually be pretty funny if it turns out to be really mediocre against past decks...

Load it up on Cockatrice vs UB Faeries, basically the Miracles of Lorwyn standard. You beat 4 Spellstutters, 4 Cryptics, and a couple Slaughter Pacts, and you win bud, you win.

[Zombie]

Load it up on Cockatrice vs UB Faeries, basically the Miracles of Lorwyn standard. You beat 4 Spellstutters, 4 Cryptics, and a couple Slaughter Pacts, and you win bud, you win.

And a couple Flashfreezes. Playing fair vs. Bitterblossom, Scion of Oona, Mistbind Clique and Ancestral Vision sounds like fun too.

Reveillark could be another fun test - the deck's matchups basically went:
The format - Bye
Faeries - RIP
If Faeries beat everything, Lark crushed everything except Faeries (and Merfolk, which had an about even MU vs. both. Who likes full fat Merfolk?)

Found another gem that was developed late in the TS-Lor format's lifetime: Five color control by the name Quick 'n Toast.

[Darkenslight]

And a couple Flashfreezes. Playing fair vs. Bitterblossom, Scion of Oona, Mistbind Clique and Ancestral Vision sounds like fun too.

Reveillark could be another fun test - the deck's matchups basically went:
The format - Bye
Faeries - RIP
If Faeries beat everything, Lark crushed everything except Faeries (and Merfolk, which had an about even MU vs. both. Who likes full fat Merfolk?)

Found another gem that was developed late in the TS-Lor format's lifetime: Five color control by the name Quick 'n Toast.

You forgot Dragonstorm, with a Turn 1 kill hand, and consistent T4 kill on the play.

Man, I really do miss TS-Lorwyn Standard.

[Zombie]

You forgot Dragonstorm, with a Turn 1 kill hand, and consistent T4 kill on the play.

Man, I really do miss TS-Lorwyn Standard.

And Elfball and Melira combo and if stretching a bit Brine lock...

[Sidneyious]

In recent events, Deathrite Shaman was in about 55% of Decks.

We need a ban on drs.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[Zombie]

In recent events, Deathrite Shaman was in about 55% of Decks.

We need a ban on drs.

After Brainstorm and Ponder have bit the dust, sure.

[Dice_Box]

Can't we finish burying the current body before we seek out another?

[tescrin]

It's not even just Caw-Blade. Affinity was a great deck in Extended when it got banned out of Standard (not sure if it was a thing in Legacy then, but I don't think Legacy was much of a thing then, having only recently been split from Vintage).

Shortly before that was Skullclamp, which was Skullclamp. Moving on.

We have to go back a decent number of years before we get to the previous Standard bannings, the infamous Tempest-Urza's Standard.

This is true, but it may be that people seeing that one Standard was basically Siege Rhino everywhere and another standard before that was mostly mono-black and before that it was Sphinx Rev (i think?), etc.. was maybe chipping away at they're willingness to commit to "let's let people rot in this forsaken world" for awhile.

[LOLWut]

In recent events, Deathrite Shaman was in about 55% of Decks.

Nope.

[Chatto]

LOL! Just mere days after the ban of STD, and people are already screaming for the head of DRS...

'And so it goes on, day after day, year after year. Slime in this ear, slime in that ear... Don't you ever yearn for change?'

WotC did what it had to do, and I sincerly hope they leave Legacy alone for a while. Change is here, enjoy this new found freedom, and go with the flow. Stop screaming for the next ban, it doesn't make you look good.

[the Thin White Duke]

We need a ban on drs.

Let's step back for a moment and get realistic.
Wizards is EXTREMELY reluctant to ban creatures.
There are a total of 2 creatures currently banned in Legacy because they enable dumb combos (and Goblin Recruiter is borderline)
People need to calm down about banning DRS.
After all, it dies to removal.

[Ronald Deuce]

We need a ban on drs.

Yeah! I hate good cards, too.