All B/R update speculation.

[Dice_Box]

they seek no growth in Legacy

Because they do not.

No effort is put in

Because the format is now on the back burner with no hope of change. The format can not be made to grow it is too expensive.

Wizards right now only cares about us in as much as

As much as they have to because they made us long ago when these issues did not exist, now they do and that is a reality that they have adapted to.

The format is mismanaged

Yes it is. I can decide I have 4 kids and don't want any more, then I come home dunk, my wife calls it quits and I lose my family. I both:
a) had no wish of growing my family and
b) was mismanaging my relationship with my family or they would not have left me.

Both can be true at the same time.

I have watched the soul of Legacy go

This was never meant to be a positive statement and came from my opinion piece. I stand by it. What is your point here other than I answered a question about dissatisfaction?

There is nothing left in Legacy that is good

See above.

If WotC decided tomorrow "WOW we need/want to grow legacy", what should they do?
If you can't provide an answer to this then just move along

You want a wish list? Remove the Reserve list, unban Twist, Gobo and Earthcraft, Ban Brainstorm and TNN, release a public apology for printing TNN and then set up a 9 person committee (Of which I would not like to be on) of great Legacy players (because I am a bad player) to manage the list. I would also do that for Vintage. Said committees must release a statement about how they view the future of the format every 3 months. Transparency.

If you're just bored of legacy then that's fine but don't make posts with claims like "the format is mismanaged" and then retreat behind "hurr durr it's just my opinion dude and actually I have no problem with WotC" when pressed to explain them

Read the dam posts and stop making me point out every dam time I was either answering a question or had already made the point you where attacking. No one is making you constantly read over my comments, I have quoted myself to comments you are asking of me time and time again. Reading the car... post explains the post. Dam.

Look, someone asked something, I answered. If you have an issue with that post fine, it was not for you anyway. If you have an issue with my views on the list that is also fine, I am not longer debating those views as it no longer matters. That choice has been made and articulated. That conversation is over. Its not me wanting to shut you down or not answer you, its a statement of fact made by Wizards.

I never claimed a lack of negativity about how I thought the format was handled, but I have no issue with the statement that Wizards feels they are unable to grow Legacy. Do you understand me now? Yes? No? It's time for a beer maybe?

[kombatkiwi]

You want a wish list? Remove the Reserve list, unban Twist, Gobo and Earthcraft, Ban Brainstorm and TNN, release a public apology for printing TNN and then set up a 9 person committee (Of which I would not like to be on) of great Legacy players (because I am a bad player) to manage the list. I would also do that for Vintage. Said committees must release a statement about how they view the future of the format every 3 months. Transparency.

This is all I wanted

I totally agree that reserved list needs to go but the last time I talked to WotC staff they said their hands are tied by the legal shit so I am unsure to what extent present-day wotc can be held accountable for changing this. Of all your suggestions I think this is the only one that would actually cause format growth. Unbanning those cards (while almost certainly the correct decision) won't change anything. A public apology for printing a card is just an excuse for a handful of enfranchised players to fellate themselves. Banning Brainstorm would likely cause a number of enfranchised players to leave, some non-legacy players may be attracted to Brainstorm gameplay and lose interest, and the majority of the others that would really want to play in non-Brainstorm legacy are still kept out by the financial barrier.

and now for some post reading:

No wish to grow the format is completely a comment about the tweet quoted and nothing else. It has nothing to do with any cards in the format and everything to do with Aaron stating they manage Legacy only for those who play it.

Me: we need/want to grow legacy", what should they do?

unban Twist, Gobo and Earthcraft, Ban Brainstorm and TNN

Here's another good one

I never claimed a lack of negativity about how I thought the format was handled

...they manage Legacy only for those who play it. That's a fair statement to me, I do not have anything harsh to say about it

Maybe there's some way this all makes sense in your head but hopefully you can see why I feel I'm being led around in circles

[Dice_Box]

[QUOTE=kombatkiwi;1042533]

No wish to grow the format is completely a comment about the tweet quoted and nothing else. It has nothing to do with any cards in the format and everything to do with Aaron stating they manage Legacy only for those who play it.

Me: we need/want to grow legacy", what should they do?

Get rid of the list. Its the only option. Other than that do what they have chosen to do, let us go.

I never claimed a lack of negativity about how I thought the format was handled

...they manage Legacy only for those who play it. That's a fair statement to me, I do not have anything harsh to say about it

Maybe there's some way this all makes sense in your head but hopefully you can see why I feel I'm being led around in circles

Yes it is. I can decide I have 4 kids and don't want any more, then I come home dunk, my wife calls it quits and I lose my family. I both:
a) had no wish of growing my family and
b) was mismanaging my relationship with my family or they would not have left me.

Both can be true at the same time.

I do not like how the format itself is handled (The idea that a card is now given the "Pillar" treatment) but I have no issue with a lack of desire to grow a format they can not support with the cards we require. I am sure I have made both points time and time again.

I totally agree that reserved list needs to go but the last time I talked to WotC staff they said their hands are tied by the legal shit so I am unsure to what extent present-day wotc can be held accountable for changing this.

Yep, fuck that list. The worst part are the morons that say "Well if your not invested you don't get a say". Then I post a picture of my Duels and Power while stating get rid of that thing and they shut up.

The worst part of it is that I do not think its all Wizards fault. I sold the Duels I do not use last year, but I had a set of 40 that I often used a handful of and lent out a handful more. That made me part of the issue. Yes, I owned those cards just to play with and not to hoard but while they are in a box at home and not seeing play what do my intentions really matter? I only play two decks with Duels in them so even if the others are 'For play' I am still part of the problem.

Then add those who do hoard with a hope of making a profit... I do feel like a lot of pressure could be taken off the format if those two issues stopped happening. But hey, that's wishful thinking.

[Stevestamopz]

On the topic of the Reserved List, a classic meme from a classic time.

[kombatkiwi]

@Stevestamopz all of those make too much sense, there needs to be a 4th panel like "the New World Order of MTG isn't just a design philosophy and WotC is the actual new world order; the deepstate/illuminati want to suppress subversive messages in reserved list cards such as 'Jihad' or 'Pyramids'"

[tescrin]

Honestly, I think the format is very accessible..

For badlands, plateau, taiga, and scrubland.

Honestly, if WotC made a couple WR,, BR, WG, and WB powerhouses you could get a player-boost a la Eldrazi, where a cheap accessible deck exists for awhile. The cards would eventually go up, but there you go. And by powerhouses, I mean things that are awkward for the Blue shell that are must-kill/Force bombs. Something like "RG - Goblin, Haste, 2/1, Destroy Target Island on ETB"

That guy right there. You just shat on the format *pretty hard*

________________
That said, the format *is* growing. There's no way it's not as several singles in the last few months have been spiking quite a bit; and they're regular staples like Snapcaster, USea, Dark Confidant (?!), Chains of Meph (?!), and a bunch of others. I can't imagine such regular staples that saw dips would be spiking if it were the same player base as a little bit ago.

I'm just hoping they stop spamming Goyf printings long enough that he goes up for a short time.

[JDK]

@tescrin
"Honestly, I think the format is very accessible.."
If you don't like winning, you mean?

"RG - Goblin, Haste, 2/1, Destroy Target Island on ETB"
Yup, sounds reasonable with Cavern floating around...as if Goblins had a problem with Island to begin with...is there someone whispering DRS in the background?

"I can't imagine such regular staples that saw dips would be spiking if it were the same player base as a little bit ago."
You really cannot imagine the following: In the recent months and years more and more people jumped on the speculation train and bought cards in either fear of spikes or hopes of spikes, especially when it comes to RL cards.

Also, don't confuse Modern and EDH impact with Legacy.

[Lemnear]

Honestly, I think the format is very accessible..

For badlands, plateau, taiga, and scrubland.

Honestly, if WotC made a couple WR,, BR, WG, and WB powerhouses you could get a player-boost a la Eldrazi.

Please, don't get me wrong, but we are waiting for a new, non-splashable creature powerhouse to be released since Knight of the Reliquary. Every time they tried, the card was either not good enough or straight absorbed by the blue shell. You can't even bank on colors anymore to offer a restriction with DRS removing potential color issues completely.

I neither think we fix anything, if we simply make other RL cards more expensive either.

[Crimhead]

"RG - Goblin, Haste, 2/1, Destroy Target Island on ETB"
Yup, sounds reasonable with Cavern floating around...as if Goblins had a problem with Island to begin with...is there someone whispering DRS in the background?

Exile instead.

And a "fixed" Recruiter (cap on stacking). And a legendary land that taps for but only casts Goblin spells.

[Lemnear]

Exile instead.

And a "fixed" Recruiter (cap on stacking). And a legendary land that taps for but only casts Goblin spells.

Instigator approves

[non-inflammable]

Banning Brainstorm would likely cause a number of enfranchised players to leave...
and the majority of the others that would really want to play in non-Brainstorm legacy are still kept out by the financial barrier.

Those two statements conflict. i know my tundras are worth way less after the top ban.

@tescrin
"Honestly, I think the format is very accessible.."
scrubland, taiga, badlands, savannah, etc...

If you don't like winning, you mean?.

after the brainstorm ban and blue duals drop in price, we'll have an "accessible" format?

cavern of souls and LOTS of other non RL cards costs just as much as a HP scrubland, taiga, badlands, savannah, etc...
Are people crying about paying almost $100 for their 3 fulminator mages they need to combat TRON? no...

Savannah can be had for less than $50 https://www.ebay.com/itm/Savannah-Re...IAAOSwWqpattL~
Badlands can be had for less than $60 (really) https://www.ebay.com/itm/Magic-The-G...0AAOSwG7Faig1k
Unlimited Taiga can be had for $40 https://www.ebay.com/itm/MTG-Unlimit...sAAOSwupRasm3I
plateau can be had for $43 https://www.ebay.com/itm/Plateau-Dua...QAAOSwQN5abTV2

There are so many more examples where these cards are accessible.
Get ready for it: I just sold an italian tabernacle in SP condition for $600 to a yugioh player that converted to EDH, yeah bitches...

I just top 4'd my local legacy event (D&T) with no duals. the top 2 was grixis delver and burn (no duals).
A local teen-ager at the LGS almost made money at an SCG NJ event playing miracles with all shock lands. The people he did beat were pissed...

The sky is falling and it's inaccessible is a falsehood that only bears out any truth by pointing to a handful of cards.

Give us back top, do a prisoner exchange or two and ban brainstorm...

[JDK]

after the brainstorm ban and blue duals drop in price, we'll have an "accessible" format?

This was not part of the post I replied to, but sure, let's dive into this.
Do you honestly thing blue will take such a hit that the duals somehow get to the level of Plateau, a land seeing pretty much no play whatsoever? I confidently say "no".

cavern of souls and LOTS of other non RL cards costs just as much as a HP scrubland, taiga, badlands, savannah, etc...
Are people crying about paying almost $100 for their 3 fulminator mages they need to combat TRON? no...

Savannah can be had for less than $50 https://www.ebay.com/itm/Savannah-Re...IAAOSwWqpattL~
Badlands can be had for less than $60 (really) https://www.ebay.com/itm/Magic-The-G...0AAOSwG7Faig1k
Unlimited Taiga can be had for $40 https://www.ebay.com/itm/MTG-Unlimit...sAAOSwupRasm3I
plateau can be had for $43 https://www.ebay.com/itm/Plateau-Dua...QAAOSwQN5abTV2

There are so many more examples where these cards are accessible.


Get ready for it: I just sold an italian tabernacle in SP condition for $600 to a yugioh player that converted to EDH, yeah bitches...


I just top 4'd my local legacy event (D&T) with no duals. the top 2 was grixis delver and burn (no duals).
A local teen-ager at the LGS almost made money at an SCG NJ event playing miracles with all shock lands. His opponents were pissed...

The sky is falling and it's inaccessible is a falsehood that only bears out any truth by pointing to a handful of cards.

Give us back top, do some prisoner exchange and ban brainstorm...

So because there are some exceptions (DnT isn't cheap either), it's competitive or even close to "full-fledged" decks?
If we stick to your prediction of a price drop for blue duals, if Brainstorm gets banned, don't you think other duals will go up in price? They are still on the RL. Their demand will increase.

Funny sidenote: I just bought a Tabernacle for 600€ last week.

[Lemnear]

Pls guys, it can't be the argument that the longterm health of Legacy should be achieved by bannings in order to lower the demand on certain RL cards to counter the nonstop price spiral caused by buyouts.

[Ronald Deuce]

If we stick to your prediction of a price drop for blue duals, if Brainstorm gets banned, don't you think other duals will go up in price? They are still on the RL. Their demand will increase.

Only Taiga. All Spells doesn't play duals.

[JDK]

Pls guys, it can't be the argument that the longterm health of Legacy should be achieved by bannings in order to lower the demand on certain RL cards to counter the nonstop price spiral caused by buyouts.

I hope you didn't interpret THAT while reading my posts. I am a strong proponent of ditching the RL.

Only Taiga. All Spells doesn't play duals.

I got the joke, but still...All Spells is one of the worst decks in Legacy...and it would still be, if BS gets banned. XD

[Lemnear]

I am a strong proponent of ditching the RL

Then you are in good company with pretty much every Legacy player, I guess. I am quite certain that the only people interrested in keeping the RL list are the ones trying to protect their "investment" aka stores, speculators, flippers and hoarders who look at MTG as a stockmarket on training wheels

[JDK]

100% agreed.

[janchu88]

well,

i got wastelanded out of the game by the 4 color deck and while in top deck mode after hymn, snapcaster hymn played with the Help of 2 DRS providing the mana, plus i had to discard 4 consecutive turns at instant speed during my draw step thanks to kolaghans command + snapcaster command. - "brought to you DRS"

Without DRS the game would have gone a completely different direction, but its all about the turn f***** DRS and who manages to stick it first. What you serve along is just a matter of taste

my 2 cents and 5 minutes of losing it

[Lord Seth]

No wish to grow the format is completely a comment about the tweet quoted and nothing else. It has nothing to do with any cards in the format and everything to do with Aaron stating they manage Legacy only for those who play it. That's a fair statement to me, I do not have anything harsh to say about it but it is an admission that they seek no growth in Legacy. They have placed Legacy in a holding pattern and plan only to do what they have to to keep those who already play it happy. No effort is put in to do anything else. With the price of Tabernacle in mind of late I guess that is a fair thing to do, I mean we have a situation right now where a card in Legacy is worth more than 8 of the power 9. Why grow what you can not support?

Is Tabernacle the second most expensive card in the game now, actually? (for the purpose of this discussion, a card's price is determined by the cheapest tournament-legal version of it) From what I can tell, only Black Lotus beats its current $2,000 pricetag.

Granted, I doubt Tabernacle will hold that, but it's surprising to see it be at #2, even if it's only there for a short period. Or is there another card I'm overlooking?

[Vissah]

How about just banning Duals if they are to pussy to get rid of the reserved list.