View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #20801
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    I'm glad they aren't going to ban BS. This thread would go belly-up; then where would I get my kicks?

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  2. #20802

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
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  3. #20803

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    @taconaut I've already answered why not everyone runs the same cards: just because a card has objectively problematic implications and/or raw power level, does not mean that every strategy can incorporate that tool and win games. The most powerful thing in legacy are Fetchlands, yet stompy decks and DnT can compete without running them - that doesn't make Fetchlands not overpowered.

    Yes, that's exactly what it means - look at it from a game theoretical sense. If the metagame equilibrium of legacy includes non-fetchland, non-probe decks, fetchland/probe decks can't be overpowered relative to the rest of the format, because people would change strategies until everyone were on fetchland/probe decks. The fact that decks can exist that exploit the weaknesses of cantrips and fetches (like eldrazi does, like DnT does, like BR reanimator does...) implies that there is counterplay, and that there exists some meta composition where a competitive player can see too many fetchland decks and metagame to beat it with something else.

    Now, a fair counterpoint to this assertion would be that Legacy is a fairly expensive format, so it is not perfectly fluid - to see perfect metagame iteration, players must be able to switch strategies easily. However, even on Magic online, where switching decks is relatively simpler, we still saw people playing non-fetchland/probe decks.


    Baubles are notably slow-cantrips

    Sure, but how much does that matter on turn 1, the main turn on which you have hangups about probe?

    and Street Wraith needs very specific cards to turn its cycling into double mana advantage (delve into a 5/5

    Gurmang Angler was the only real playable delve spell at the time of the probe banning, so this is moot; everyone has that constraint

    *and* ramp below 13 life

    You are thinking of Death's Shadow, which is a different card. Street Wraith is 3BB, Creature - Wraith, Swampwalk, Cycling - Pay 2 Life, 3/4

    That a card is powerful does not mean that it wins games, nor does it mean that a strategy designed to exploit that power is viable.

    ....what could powerful possibly mean, if not these two things? If it's not these two things, how could it have any relevance to the banlist (other than unsupported mechanics like ante, or untoward physical play requirements like shaharazad or chaos orb)?

    On your second point you're introducing a wide variety of anecdotal variables. I've talked enough about what Probe objectively is when we strip it down (interaction-diminishing

    You have asserted this, but not proved it. Before and after someone is probed, players have exactly the same ability to interact, with the exception of whatever card replaced probe. One player has more information, sure, and maybe can make better decisions, but they could have made those decisions anyway. If you couldn't interact with them after getting probed, you couldn't have interacted before, either.

    and built-in mana positive issues).

    There are multiple mana-positive cards in Magic, and I'm a huge fan of a lot of them. Dark Ritual is one of the sweetest Magic cards ever. Or, if you don't like mana-positive things in blue decks, how about Aether Vial? I don't see this as a problem in any way.

    DTT and Cruise are highly relevant to understanding that Probe is a mana positive engine card.

    But they were not legal when Probe was banned!

    If your argument is that Dig and Cruise are reasonable cards in Probe's absence, that might be coherent, but I doubt that you think those two cards could be unbanned (I don't want to put words in your mouth though, so please let me know if I'm misreading it).


    It highlights that exploiting that mana engine does not require any deviation in 'fair' & Fetchland-maximizing deckbuilding towards sequential combo. Without demands towards sequential combo Probe can be understood as a free power level handout to UBg (the colors of delve). Now we can classify Probe as interaction-diminishing,

    Again, you have asserted this but shown no evidence that it is true.

    mana positive, color-skewed,

    I understand what you mean now with respect to color-skewed, but a simple counterexample is ANT, which plays no delve cards.

    and further boosting the power of Fetchlands.

    I think this isn't quite right; if by "the power of fetchlands," you mean, "acting as a spare graveyard card for delve spells," then yes, they perform a similar function, but they don't have any notable synergy or interaction. Fetchlands are good without Probe, and Probe is good without Fetchlands; they don't have anything to do with each other, but just happen to occupy a similar niche for a particular cadre of decks/cards (specifically, delve spells).

    There's a lot of other points you've made which I'll try and come back and comment on, but I want this post to be focused on understanding that Probe got banned because of Fetchlands. Probe is an incorrect unban as long as Fetchlands are legal. Fetchlands break:
    -cantrips (particularly Brainstorm)
    -DRS
    -the delve mechanic
    -already consistency-based [cantrip] strategies (each Fetch mills a land out of deck, decreasing color and flood variance)

    Frank Karsten wrote a statistics article that shows that the "deck-thinning" effect of Fetchlands is small - I can try to find you the link if you like.

    Probe makes every issue of Fetchlands more pronounced [+/- on the DRS one, that specific correlation requires that they are played in the same list].

    The only one in that list that seems convincingly relevant, as I described above, is that they both add an extra card to the bin. Probe really doesn't have any notable interactions with the rest that Ponder, for instance, doesn't.

    After Khans, Fetchlands became a fast mana concern (Dig/Cruise/delve creatures There is only one that anyone regularly plays, i.e. Gurmang Angler), and that's what changed. We've now seen 4 bans (DTT, Cruise, DRS, and Probe) that show that Fetchlands have almost no pressure valve when it comes to destabilizing the format.

    Like I said before, I agree with you that Fetchlands would be an interesting and hugely impactful ban for Legacy, but the financial constraints on the format limit WotC's ability to consider it as an option. Plus, personally, I think fetches are sweet. I hate getting manascrewed.

    While Loam/Mox, Cavern/Vial, and Tomb/Chalice can more or less compete with Fetchlands, they fail to induce diversity within the Fetchland group (particularly the cantrip-utilizing ones).

    Can you give me an example of a deck that introduces diversity in other archetypes? This is an interesting premise, but I don't think it actually occurs.

    Specifically Probe, Counterbalance, and Hymn are/were [Probe] the main diversity killers within that group.

    Again, what variety of decks would you expect to appear were WotC to ban Counterbalance and Hymn? In my estimation, the DTBs basically didn't change after the Probe banning (with the possible exception of Czech Pile taking a hit because of DRS).
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    However, I was actually being flip and sarcastic. OK; I try to reply earnestly nonetheless.

    Pretty much every paragraph you type, it would be appropriate to add at the end, "only if you're playing blue".

    Free spells in other colors:

    Artifact mana like Mox Diamond or Lotus Petal
    Exploration ("free" if you have another land)
    Unmask
    Any of the Dredge threats
    Invigorate/Mutagenic Growth

    Cheap-as-free:

    Aether Vial (plus flash and uncounterability!)
    Wasteland (basically sinkhole that costs your land-drop)

    Steep Discount relative to fair magic:

    Chalice
    any of the dumb undercosted sol-land-castable eldrazi
    Natural Order (plus a tutor!)
    Stage-Depths combo (how many mana should a 20/20 flying indestructible cost?)
    All the reanimation spells

    The point is, it's Legacy, everyone is trying to get something for nothing. I'm not saying I'm not a blue deck fan, but so many of you guys act like Island killed your parents.


    Don't conflate and obfuscate; it's only BS that needs a ban.

    Probe was fine and didn't need to be banned. THANK YOU It's never any other card. It's just BS. I'd even go so far as to say BS as a sorcery would be fine.

    Top, Probe, DRS, DTT, TC, Earthcraft, Mind Twist > BS

    Ah, OK; this is a vastly more reasonable position - I am glad you elaborated on it.

    I think the sorcery brainstorm thing would be interesting as a nerf, it's a bummer WotC won't do it on account of the power-level errata thing. Maybe Sorcery-Brainstorm is printable in a supplemental set? It would certainly help make discard a little more relevant in Legacy.
    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Brainstorm+fetch is so much better than ponder or any other cantrip it's not even close.
    Instant speed, protects against discard, and with fetch has all the functionality of ponder built in. It's insane and, frankly, really boring.
    I don't think you're wrong that brainstorm + fetch is better than other cantrips, but brainstorm is not boring. Attacking with creatures, chalice decks, Show and Tell - that's the boring stuff. Brainstorm is sweet.

  4. #20804
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Brainstorm is sweet. Definitely my favorite card.

    #leavebrainstormalone
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  5. #20805

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    I must have failed somewhere...
    to convey that BS is the spine and glue that gives blue a choke-hold on legacy.
    OK, I hear you. I also think that's hyperbolic and that it ignores any number of other blue cards that contribute to this supposed choke-hold—Force of Will, Ponder, Delver of Secrets, Counterbalance, True-Name Nemesis, and Daze.
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  7. #20807

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Would you be against brainstorm in other colors? If brainstorm were also available in white or green, do you believe it would make it better, or do you believe it would be worse?

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  8. #20808
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    Would you be against brainstorm in other colors? If brainstorm were also available in white or green, do you believe it would make it better, or do you believe it would be worse?

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    Would it really improve non-blue decks, if blue decks can run 8 brainstorms and non-blue ones still have no Ponders, Preordains, Delvers, TNNs and "free" counterspells?

    One of the fundamental problems of the format and the cantrip/fetch shell was already displayed by Survival and later DRS: The shell has no trouble absorbing powerful non-blue cards/strategies because of the shells capability to fix hand/draws/mana/colors without carddisadvabtage
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  9. #20809
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    -rob

  10. #20810

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Would it really improve non-blue decks, if blue decks can run 8 brainstorms and non-blue ones still have no Ponders, Preordains, Delvers, TNNs and "free" counterspells?
    I thought about that and I'm not sure this would actually be a concern since I think most blue decks would still run ponders before more brainstorm, and the the nonblue decks get a significant boost in selection. I understand the risk, though, and mostly this is just an exercise. From the deleted posts I can tell some of you certainly have opinions. Good. Try to articulate them in a way that won't get them deleted, I would like to be able to read them...

    One of the fundamental problems of the format and the cantrip/fetch shell was already displayed by Survival and later DRS: The shell has no trouble absorbing powerful non-blue cards/strategies because of the shells capability to fix hand/draws/mana/colors without carddisadvabtage
    I understand, I'm unconvinced that this would be an issue since the non-blue card I proposed is already a blue card and 60 cards is a small amount of space for more cantrips. Maybe blue decks shave one or two of their worse cantrips to play 1 or 2 non blue brainstorm. I could see that I guess, but then you are dropping blue cards for non-blue cards for FoW.

    Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it.

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  11. #20811

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Non blue decks already have brainstorm. It's called Brainstorm. If it's your only blue card you can splash it using fetches and that also makes it better in your deck.

  12. #20812
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Non blue decks already have brainstorm. It's called Brainstorm. If it's your only blue card you can splash it using fetches and that also makes it better in your deck.
    I'm not sure this is actually true. A lot of non Blue decks build themselves around an engine of some kind and seek to abuse it. They end up finely tuned for one task and you would likely deminish the impact by playing cards outside the plan.

    That's the issue, Blue gets to be the colour of random piles of cards, non Blue normally need to have a streamlined plan and be constructed to maximise it.
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  13. #20813
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Way more decks could splash blue for Brainstorm than what actually do. Why not? Who knows.
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  14. #20814

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    Way more decks could splash blue for Brainstorm than what actually do. Why not? Who knows.
    I'd like several examples to confirm that as something other than fairly hyperbolic.

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  15. #20815

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    i like where you're going but i've got a detour: unban probe, top, deathrite, earthcraft, mindtwist and ban brainstorm.

    no more shaky keeps just 'cause you have a BS and a fetch

    you wouldn't HAVE TO play blue "cause i'm a spike nonsense"...

    EDIT: i'd even campaign to get DTT and treasure cruise back if it meant BS gets the ban hammer.
    It'd take more than a Brainstorm ban for Treasure Cruise to be of reasonable power level. That thing ran roughshod over Modern, which didn't even have Ponder or Preordain. You'd need to at least also ban Ponder, and possibly Preordain while you're at it.

  16. #20816
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    I'd like several examples to confirm that as something other than fairly hyperbolic.
    I think his point was that Brainstorm's great in decks that need to find specific cards to win, but it's really bad when your deck relies on having a high threat density. Burn's a great example of a deck in which Brainstorm is palpably worse than whatever else the deck is running. Dice is right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    It'd take more than a Brainstorm ban for Treasure Cruise to be of reasonable power level. That thing ran roughshod over Modern, which didn't even have Ponder or Preordain. You'd need to at least also ban Ponder, and possibly Preordain while you're at it.
    I see your point and agree with it on principle, but Modern's also a format where you don't have the same supporting apparatus. Just because something's "too good for Modern" (LOL!) doesn't mean it's too powerful for Legacy.

    But yeah, people saying that Cruise and Dig would be fine if Brainstorm were banned don't really have a leg to stand on. Ancestral Recall's banned for a reason, and double-Recall ("Total Recall?") is banned for even more obvious reasons.
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  17. #20817

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Would it really improve non-blue decks, if blue decks can run 8 brainstorms and non-blue ones still have no Ponders, Preordains, Delvers, TNNs and "free" counterspells?

    One of the fundamental problems of the format and the cantrip/fetch shell was already displayed by Survival and later DRS: The shell has no trouble absorbing powerful non-blue cards/strategies because of the shells capability to fix hand/draws/mana/colors without carddisadvabtage
    The issue is probably that it outclasses every other shell that tries to do the same thing (CA/consistency), the other options are things like loam/ library, then other things like bob/ looting/ visionary and tracker that are only slightly similar. Probably the only way around this is just to overload everyone with card manipulation options so that it isnt a distinct advantage anymore. This isnt to say that all colors should get brainstorm, but WOTC has been dabbling in it with cards like Ancient Stirrings, Faithless Looting and the like, but they probably need to be more aggressive in this regard if they want other colors to be able to compete outside of loam and ape decks. They were willing to give blue a bunch of really good creatures, maybe its time for some quid pro quo.

  18. #20818
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    FontSize Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    From the deleted posts I can tell some of you certainly have opinions. Good. Try to articulate them in a way that won't get them deleted, I would like to be able to read them...
    I don't get why you tell ME that, as i deleted my own post because it was an accidently dupe post of the prior one.
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  19. #20819

    Re: FontSize Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    I don't get why you tell ME that, as i deleted my own post because it was an accidently dupe post of the prior one.
    I meant to put a line break to differentiate what I was saying to you from that thought. Apologies for the sloppy communication.

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  20. #20820
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    @taconaut I think I've made pretty clear points about when and how Probe became a problem. Bringing up Baubles and Street Wraith are not comparable; while they have the same function as a free draw spell, you still have to win a game with a streamlined plan. To get away with Baubles, you'd probably have to be running Auriok Salvagers, cards with keyword improvise, and/or Thoughtcast. Street Wraith has to do something more than cycle for 2 life to win games (i.e. double ramp towards Gurmag and Shadow, or interact with dredge to create pseudo-mana). Probe had to go when it stopped requiring build-around [Khans], delve made it a turbolinear card that required zero deviation from Delver's fair, Fetchland maximizing gameplan [thus Grixis became the only way to make Delver if you wanted to win].

    I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on how aspects like widely-playable, ease of exploitation, velocity [mana engine aspects], etc are/aren't a requirement for deserving a ban.

    Other aspects of your post without rehashing old stuff:
    Can you give me an example of a deck that introduces diversity in other archetypes? This is an interesting premise, but I don't think it actually occurs.

    Again, what variety of decks would you expect to appear were WotC to ban Counterbalance and Hymn? In my estimation, the DTBs basically didn't change after the Probe banning (with the possible exception of Czech Pile taking a hit because of DRS).
    An example of how one core of legacy (the cores are Fetchlands/consistency, Loam/Mox, Sol land/Chalice, and Cavern/Vial) creates change/diversity in another would be best described by looking at DnT; its structure mutates in response to what other decks are doing. Plenty of decks do this, but what should be noted is that, barring the release of exceptionally game-changing new cards, no amount of different builds of the latter three cores can derail Counterbalance [miracles] or Hymn [Grixis Jammy Jams]. Change has to come from within the Fetchland/consistency core, but those two cards largely prevent it. The issue is that cards which should widen diversity from within are generally incorporated into those shells (a prime example being DRS). Grixis Delver [pre-ban] was able to use DRS differently to success, but it also pretty much killed off every other low to the ground Delver strategy, which makes it rather trivial for Hymn and CB to invalidate all low to the ground strategies as they will only have one dominant presentation.

    So there were the other three cores off to the side [pre-ban] and then Grixis Delver, Czech Pile, and miracles - it's not hard to see how combo of any variety wasn't going to be able to force them to change. The Delver side of that equation is weaker now [post-ban] which allows for more combo representation, but combo still isn't going to dislodge the use of Hymn nor CB. These two cards provide time for SCM/removal spam durdling so we can also rule out any change being forced by non-blue Fetchland users (which makes all of this family's non-combo members a worse version of Grixis Jammy Jams regardless of what colors and tools they were using).

    Banning off CB immediately allows people to play Tundra as differing users of Terminus [SDT could safely be unbanned] and differing color combinations of Blade. Banning off Hymn [DRS safely unbanned] means you can start off with that card and play it with Delver or Strix or not-blue cards (since everything you'd use DRS to ramp to isn't auto-losing to Shatter/Shock, lose your hand, and repeat with SCM). There is a synergistic effect of Delver/DRS and not-blue/DRS in terms of eliciting changes from control when control can't sit back and play UU: Delver can't force me to adapt. Once control has to react away from not-blue/DRS towards Delver/DRS, you make a lot of space for not-blue/DRS (which does not have a terribly hard time choosing to beat up on Delver-based strats) and combo, which is traditionally strong versus not-blue/DRS. This kind of environment is where the latter three cores (Cavern/Vial, Loam/Mox, and Sol Land/Chalice), which exist mainly as reactions to Fetchlands/consistency, begin to pick and choose the definitions of what is required to sit at tier 1 at any given time.

    With Hymn and CB sitting on top of the format, where control is immune to change forced by the other three cores, it is understandable how such strategies are seen as an annoyance.

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