View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #21921
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    I just don't see a world where Wasteland would exist in this type of format. It would literally become Strip Mine, and Legacy would become a strange, futuristic version of old 1996 "Type II" without some of the other broken components.
    Eh, itís fine. Thereís nothing stopping people from having access to mana security on turn 1 with 2c decks; but you do need to slow down. No more full-speed mana fixing (before 4 lands in play) with linear double mana b/c of delve/DRS.

    You want to play into Wasteland for the option of grabbing duals with a Mirage slow-Fetch, thatís awesome - but youíre gonna need to open yourself up to this amazing thing called ďinteractionĒ b/c you made a choice to not play Evolving Wilds. Trade-offs like this are inherently healthy.

  2. #21922

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Humphrey View Post
    so W6 is banned now. Indeed just another collateral hit because wotc doesnt ban the elephant in the room (brainstorm) we are close to the point where the banlist would be smaller if they exchange the fetches with the beneficiaries-

  3. #21923

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Personally Iíd be interested in a format (called Timeless? Chronos?) where the card pool is fully eternal like Legacy and Vintage, but with no Reserved List cards (including no true duals) legal, no Ons/Zen fetch lands legal, and a banning policy under which cards that hit Top 8 in sufficient density (density in a given Top 8 is D=X/32) for a sufficiently long time window and for sufficiently big events (donít count events smaller than N players) just get banned. Those three parameters could be public knowledge (although they could be subject to adjustment) and cards close to their threshold could go on a publicly known watch list. You could have a density exception for symmetrical cycles of lands, which would be lumped together. (That is, shocklands are all one card but the bar for banning them would be appropriately higher than the bar for banning an actual single card.) The aforementioned fetches could be the only cards banned before the start of the format unless Iíve missed obvious culprits.

    Iíve heard it argued that such a ban policy will eventually leave us playing with Chimney Imps. It isnít true. It depends on how the parameters are set. If the density requirement is stringent (D=90% or higher) then youíd seldom ban anything. I donít think even Brainstorm is that high in Legacy. If the density requirement is set correctly, the most egregiously superior cards are removed without continuing indefinitely down the food chain of weaker and weaker cards. The goal is to remove big outliers in power level. To oversimplify, imagine every card has a numerical power level. If a cardís level is too high above all others, the meta canít correct itself. Now letís say you remove everything thatís three or more standard deviations above the average. Youíre not left with nothing. Youíre actually left with almost everything, and now the meta is able to correct itself. The point isnít to always axe the best thing but rather to consistently axe things if theyíre the best by a wide enough margin.

    Doing this in a quantitative, impartial, and foreseeable way, but taking enough time to collect meaningful data before acting, would have interesting results, but Legacy may not be ready for that approach. Thatís why a new format, without existing ďpillarsĒ or ďsacred cowsĒ, would be interesting, and if it was any good it could have increased longevity by not including Reserved List cards, as I mentioned above.

  4. #21924

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    To oversimplify, imagine every card has a numerical power level. If a cardís level is too high above all others, the meta canít correct itself. Now letís say you remove everything thatís three or more standard deviations above the average. Youíre not left with nothing. Youíre actually left with almost everything, and now the meta is able to correct itself.
    There is logic to what you wrote but I don't necessarily think that banning in this manner may necessarily lead to the meta being able to correct itself.

    Take a look at Modern. Unlike Legacy, Modern does not have the blue pile (BS/Ponder/FoW) to police the format. Without this pile, the Modern meta looks like this: broken deck comes up and dominates the meta --> insufficient number of blue decks to police the broken deck --> meta cannot self-regulate leading to bans --> next new broken deck comes up --> rinse and repeat.

    I'm not necessarily saying that will definitely happen under your proposal but I think it's something to consider. Personally, if I was managing a format I wouldn't want to be completely tied to metrics making my decisions for me. I'd rather have discretion.

  5. #21925

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    If what you say is true about Modern, that suggests that the problem is with the card pool. After all, the dynamic you describe arose despite WotCís discretion with bans. They didnít use my suggested system. At least my suggested format has all the blue cards you just mentioned :-)

    But you are right on this point: my proposed system doesnít discriminate between decks. For better or for worse, WotC tolerated the status of Miracles in Legacy longer than they would have tolerated Dredge in an equivalent status. My suggested system is blind. If there are four decks you hate, my suggested system could allow them all to be tier 1. Then again, unless youíre secretly WotC and youíre calling the shots, the same is true of all other formats in existence.

    Edit: I donít mind losing to Dredge more than I mind losing to Miracles, particularly if Iím able to expect both in the meta. Do you? Thereís no judgment behind the question ó itís just subjective.

  6. #21926
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Just ban every card and force us to play in shadowy alleyways and hidden rooms.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    You sir are a ninja of fine quality.

  7. #21927
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Can't quite reduce it to that level @BirdsOfParadise. You can have a deck that does whatever you want, and with minimal SB slots you can opt out of playing magic vs Dredge. This is quite impossible vs Counterbalance, which is on a power level where you can't play a competitive deck without doing very specific things to avoid auto-loss to card UU: win the game. Dredge will never dictate what decks people can register and find success. You would need to unban a cards like Bazaar of Baghdad to have that same format-warping effect as SDT/CB had - and even then you could still win with SB slots, and more importantly everyone else in the format would have to lose roughly the same amount of slots as you did to have a shot vs Bazaar.

    It does matter what you lose to, and how you lose. If we turn a blind eye to Fetches, the cantripping Lotus Petal (Probe), and the Goyf of spells (Misstep)...the biggest problem cards legacy has ever known are Goyf, CB, Hymn [post-Snapcaster], and Wrenn. Dredge is nowhere near this peer group; if you lose to Dredge that's on you b/c you had options; you had still had freedom of deck construction. You just demonstrated why your system doesn't work: you can't assign even-handed power ratings to cards b/c you need context. Dredge doesn't abuse Fetchlands, every problem card I just gave you does (by way of Brainstorm).

  8. #21928

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Can't quite reduce it to that level @BirdsOfParadise. You can have a deck that does whatever you want, and with minimal SB slots you can opt out of playing magic vs Dredge. This is quite impossible vs Counterbalance, which is on a power level where you can't play a competitive deck without doing very specific things to avoid auto-loss to card UU: win the game. Dredge will never dictate what decks people can register and find success. You would need to unban a cards like Bazaar of Baghdad to have that same format-warping effect as SDT/CB had - and even then you could still win with SB slots, and more importantly everyone else in the format would have to lose roughly the same amount of slots as you did to have a shot vs Bazaar.

    It does matter what you lose to, and how you lose. If we turn a blind eye to Fetches, the cantripping Lotus Petal (Probe), and the Goyf of spells (Misstep)...the biggest problem cards legacy has ever known are Goyf, CB, Hymn [post-Snapcaster], and Wrenn. Dredge is nowhere near this peer group; if you lose to Dredge that's on you b/c you had options; you had still had freedom of deck construction.
    To be clear, Iím talking about a hypothetical format (see my post above). That said, you seem to be arguing that linear synergy decks are easily hated out and therefore canít occupy long-term dominating spots in the meta. I was defending my hypothetical system from the argument that it would lead to linear synergy decks dominating the meta. So I actually think weíre coming from the same place in terms of how much weíre worried about those decks. Iím not sure how to interpret your postís bearing on my hypothetical format or hypothetical ban system, and Iím interested in hearing how you think it applies if you have time to read my post above. For example, can it be optimal to ban cards that have a much lower metagame share than other cards? You suggest so by stressing Hymn. That would be an argument for not using a quantitative method to determine bannings.

  9. #21929
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    When you look at Hymn in Czech, it needs to be understood that there is no such card that:
    -survives shatter/shock
    -avoids DRS's graveyard policing
    -doesn't die to 1/1 flying deathtouch
    -has a safe zone to hide in (hand obliterated by Hymn/SCM, have to play everything you draw so no accumulating resources, if it's a dude JTMS bounces into discard, if it's on top of your deck you can't draw it b/c JTMS +2)
    -reducing your strategy to all ETB-value duders still ends up having less total value than the sheer number of 2-for-1s they had
    -has to be immune to Decay (or buy enough time to not care about being Decay'd)

    What exactly was that card supposed to be? It would have to be horrifically imbalanced. So the better question would be 'why' that hypothetical card would have to be outrageous. When decks aren't restricted by color (and paid no real cost to have all those colors), you need a zone that allows you to do things differently - that's what the hand is traditionally for. So the 4c goodstuff is annoying, but it's the card Hymn destroying your hand that's really takes away the ability to play differently.

    It's not just arbitrary power that matters so much, but rather the self-propagating problem engines. You can start with Fetchlands and explain all of legacy's problems. In the context of Fetchlands staying legal, you can trace the line from Goyf provoking the printing of Snapcaster -> CB/SDT constricting effective use of SCM to only their deck -> everyone using DRS b/c they had to run Decay -> DTT/Probe era -> banning the wrong card (SDT) -> letting Hymn hook up with Snapcaster -> Hymn the Gathering....sure would have been nice to have a 1-drop artifact that let any deck play around Hymn and the draw-step discarding...if only there was such a card...or maybe if there were a card that let me recoup value after being Hymn'd like Dig...

    With Hymn it's a multi-factorial comedy of errors that brought us to where we were [and where we're going back too] since we just keep banning every proactive Hymn-punishing card. Hymn has to go, or you have to knock out Fetchlands to stop it from being blended with other colors to this degree.

  10. #21930

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I get that itís bad when a deck can fight along all axes using low cmc cards that net value while also having great card selection, but how do you choose a single piece of that description instead of Strix, KCommand or Brainstorm? Iím not calling for a strix ban but I fail to see how the selection of hymn isnít arbitrary.

    Edit: you ninjaíd me with your last paragraph. OK.

  11. #21931

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    it's almost as if you banned brainstorm you could unban deathrite shaman, dig through time, treasure cruise, gitaxian probe and top.

    then even possibly unbanning [insert favorite card here]? mine is mana drain.
    In reality, fetchlands are the culprit. Ban them and all those cards can be unbanned.

  12. #21932

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qweerios View Post
    If they ban fetch lands there will be nothing consistent for W6 to bring back, no consistent way to shuffle with Brainstorm, no consistent way to make mana with DRS, no messing about with Top, no easy way to play 3-4 colors in a deck, and Delve cards (all of them) come down much slower. I am sure I am missing a few but to me that sounds like fetches are the real culprit.

    I would be pleasantly surprise to hear about some temporary 1 year ban on fetchlands combined with an unban of the cards that were enabled by them.
    That would be amazing.

    DRS, DTT, W6, Top and Treasure Cruise and a bunch of others could all get unbanned if fetchlands get banned.

    But the real reason to ban fetches is the way all the shuffling and cantripping takes up a ton of time and make the game way less fun.

  13. #21933
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Yeah, real amazing, until the next best thing is discovered, constricts the format and we have the same conversations over and over again.

    But, indeed, I would actually love to see this hypothetical format, or the one with rigidly formal ban structure, just so that people can, in all likelihood, eat those words. Except, if it failed, they wouldn't. I'd be perfectly fine accepting being wrong if they worked out if this fabled road to "diversity" actually lead to anything other than an old wooden ship.

    However, the usual suspects here, with the usual trite ideas, would likely still blame this failure not on the merit of their own spurious ideas, but, of course, as always, blame something else. The formal system can't fail because of the nature of it's formality, of course, it must be because the players, or the card pool, or the metagame.

    Every choice made, and not made, will make somethings "better" and other things "worse." The nostalgic, fabled "diversity" is long, long gone from Legacy, mostly because it never existed and also because the format is predicated on constriction, not expansion.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    óKaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  14. #21934
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Constriction of the format is tied to linear access to perfectly-fixed mana. Without Fetchlands you have to adhere to the color wheel more tightly or slow down to grab those duals or play cards like Mana Confluence or find some other way to make the mana work. The key though is taking the Fetchland fraction of legacy and breaking it down into 3íish different ways to play the game so legacy goes from 4 decks [Fetchlands vs Sol Land/Chalice vs Loam/Mox vs Cavern/Vial] to ~6 decks.

    It is a much higher bar for a new card to be the next best thing if it has to be integrated into a mana shell that can be targeted (allowing players to ignore the new card b/c they could attack the idea that would house it). When Fetchlands is one group of decks, a bad printing can hijack the whole group with ease. Once youíve hijacked Fetchlands, ainít nobody gonna stop you b/c Fetchlands are not a viable target.

  15. #21935
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Constriction of the format is tied to linear access to perfectly-fixed mana.
    In theory, sure. In actual practice? No. Once "better" option exist, there is no justifiable reason any more to run the older options. Which means, every new playable printing invalidates wide swaths of older cards, soley by being good enough to play.

    Take the evolution of what creatures are being run in Death and Taxes. No fetches there, only the "prefect mana" of being mono-White. Yet, there the creature base is massively homogenous. Do you see anyone jamming Glowriders? No. Anyone jamming Jotun Grunt still? No.

    THe power level of cards construits the card pool themselves. All mana access does is accelerate the process. All banning fetchlands would do is make mana worse across the board, meaning Death and Taxes and other mono color decks that don't need them would become the new dominant force, in all likelihood. Why is that a better paradigm than the one we are in now? Just because it nerfs Brainstorm?

    In other words, why, a priori, is what you propose demonstrably better than what we have now?
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    óKaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  16. #21936
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    In theory, sure. In actual practice? No. Once "better" option exist, there is no justifiable reason any more to run the older options. Which means, every new playable printing invalidates wide swaths of older cards, soley by being good enough to play.

    Take the evolution of what creatures are being run in Death and Taxes. No fetches there, only the "prefect mana" of being mono-White. Yet, there the creature base is massively homogenous. Do you see anyone jamming Glowriders? No. Anyone jamming Jotun Grunt still? No.

    THe power level of cards construits the card pool themselves. All mana access does is accelerate the process. All banning fetchlands would do is make mana worse across the board, meaning Death and Taxes and other mono color decks that don't need them would become the new dominant force, in all likelihood. Why is that a better paradigm than the one we are in now? Just because it nerfs Brainstorm?

    In other words, why, a priori, is what you propose demonstrably better than what we have now?
    The Cavern/Vial idea is, by nature of its construction, unable to maintain its own relevance. Regardless of the tribe, you donít need much of a detour to undermine their entire gameplan. Thatís not commentary on the power of Vial post-Fetchlands, just pointing out that their mana idea is subject to interaction (so no matter what value duder they print, the safety valve of ďyouíre not getting away with that styleĒ does exist). You can look back in this thread where I talked more in-depth about legacy without Fetchlands for thoughts on Vial. Long story short, youíd have to put Vial or Port on a watchlist; the nice thing about hitting Vial is that we can ban Terminus at the same time. Ancient Tomb also gets put on a watchlist fwiw.

    In terms of why itís better to force previously-Fetchland decks to go off in ~3 different directions is that no matter what way they choose, that path is targetable, whereas Fetchlands currently are not a valid target being too linear and uninteractive. There is no such thing as consistently losing simply b/c you chose to be on Fetchlands; you werenít ever playing into any credible threat.

  17. #21937
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    In terms of why itís better to force previously-Fetchland decks to go off in ~3 different directions is that no matter what way they choose, that path is targetable, whereas Fetchlands currently are not a valid target being too linear and uninteractive. There is no such thing as consistently losing simply b/c you chose to be on Fetchlands; you werenít ever playing into any credible threat.
    How do you suppose that this paradigm is necessarily better? Now, by your own admission, we ban Vial and Tomb, then what are we left with?

    What is the aim here? Great, Brainstorm is out. Great, you don't need to buy fetchlands. What do you need to buy? Why is buying any of that better than the fetchlands? You've already demonstrated that this hypothetical card pool is also constrictive.

    Much in the same way that the Pioneer cardpool will prove constrictive. And the way the Modern cardpool is constrictive. The Legacy cardpool is, by its very nature, constrictive. Your aim is only to make it alternately constrictive to serve your own self-interest, i.e. ban cards you don't like. You offer up some notion of "interaction" without saying what that is. Not to mention how this places even larger onus on owning dual lands and especially the actually good ones. But again, you surmise this is a "good thing" for some reason that is likely "personal preference."

    Now, you might think, "no, no, that is sour grapes on your part." I own 50+ dual lands, I could care less if they spike in price. I have 8 Wastelands. I don't sell or trade cards ever, so I'll eat my fetchlands if they become worthless, I don't care. I can't even tell you how many potential decks I can play, so if I can't play Death and Taxes because your plan bans Vial, or Bomberman because your plan bans Ancient Tomb, or Brainstorm, because your ban invalidates that, I will just break out Candelabras and play 12-Post, or UR Burn, or whatever I can play with Vistas, or one of the almost assuredly-made decks that leverages 4x Ponder and 4x Preordain, etc. I don't have a vested interest in keeping Brainstorm in the format from a sunk-in cost perspective. I couldn't care any less, I consider the money I spend on cards to be like money I spend on food not a ROIC device. Worthless tomorrow? Cool deal, I could not care any less.

    The thing is though, your plan is just one in nearly 2,000 pages here of subjective preference masquerading as objective fact. There is nothing in your plan that gives Legacy anything better, just a differentially construed constrictive pool of cards. Oh, but it's a better constriction? You certainly haven't sold me on that, constriction is constriction, you just want the sort you want for "reasons."
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    óKaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  18. #21938

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    Just ban every card and force us to play in shadowy alleyways and hidden rooms.
    The shadows will prevent us from seeing the broken, tortured faces and tattered attire of our fellow players! Brilliant!

  19. #21939
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    @H it would be optimal if Fetches were banned and they reprinted duals at the same time, but this won't happen. Even without that happening, if you look at all the cards out there you're going to notice all kinds of *unique* ways to fix your mana without needing Fetches [more specifically fast Fetches, i.e. Scalding Tarn, Vista, etc.]. You're not really going to be at an advantage with ~12 duals over someone who still only has a few, but has constructed a deck more focused around 2c, basics, and a way to fix those basics (again Evolving Wilds/Fabled Passage/slow Fetches). I doubt a ~12 dual deck would fare much better than someone taking a contemporary list and shoving in 8x Mirage slow Fetches without buying any more duals. 3-4c greed piles would still doable [looking otherwise exactly as they are today], but you'd have to open yourself up to this inherently healthy thing called interaction.

    Banning Fetchlands does not equal the only optimal way to play being owning tons of duals. Massing duals is, in all likelihood, less powerful than doing the same things we do today in legacy, just a little bit slower. The untapped mana of mass duals, without fixing control (which importantly thins decks), means you're signing up for longer games with more blanks drawn. The same is true of ignoring the color wheel with non-fixable lands like Mana Confluence. Now if you want to try and Delver people out post-Fetches and jump around casting other randomly colored hyper-efficient threats, you'd probably want a lot of duals (but it isn't going to work, b/c being hyper-efficient with unpredictable mana is not a recipe for success). For no-basics Delver, you're going to want to look into things like Land Grant, Grove, OuaT, Crop Rot, mana dorks before doing something outlandish like buying up to playsets of Taiga/Volc/Trop, Bayou/Trop/Usea, etc...

    On Vial in this hypothetical, while it is exceptionally poor card design, the real issue is the mana if frees up which goes into Port specifically. So even if Cavern/Vial deck would be too much of a problem, you still have options on what to go after. Key point though: it's really easy to remain broadly competitive in a way that brutalizes mana cores comprised of Cavern/Vial, Loam/Mox, and/or Sol Land Chalice with minimal constraints on design - they aren't moving targets and they can't defend themselves.

    You're jumping way out on a limb here with the only way to play being mass duals. It really wouldn't be that big of a change to playstyles, but rather a change to the speed of the format & risking getting dumpstered by Wasteland if you got too greedy with the color wheel. Pumping the brakes on subversive mana-ramping exploits (threshold, delve, DRS, etc where 1 land translates to bonus mana and perfect, linear fixing) and Brainstorm means a good amount of unbans and fewer bans down the line. Fast Fetchlands are not improving the legacy format, so much as constantly putting it into states of disrepair.

    Legacy has always been defined the best 2-drop, given how quick that happens, let's step back a bit on the mana and let the second player actually have a chance to play a game.

  20. #21940

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I think you are overestimating the potential unbans with a ban of fetchlands (and Wasteland, for obvious reasons), because Ponder/Preordain would still be around.

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