All B/R update speculation.

[Fox]

I think at some point, the whole mechanic just gets nuked. At least I hope, because Lurrus would be an interesting maindeck card to brew with, but now we can't.

Not really interested in having to bring in yard hate vs DnT. Take it as a win and move on.

[H]

Not really interested in having to bring in yard hate vs DnT. Take it as a win and move on.

Well, I like and play Death and Taxes, so I don't take it for a win at all, .

I mean, I have plenty of other options as well, but I'd have liked to have that as well, along with possibly improved Deadguy.

I don't really care that most of the cards I preordered, that haven't even gotten to me yet are useless now, haha. I will just buy some other cards. I just think they could have been a little more sensible in the ban move.

[Izor]

Can't say I'm a fan of having Gyruda around for the future, but at least that's just the probably new best version of turn-1-all-in-combo which still has as many weaknesses as other glass cannons, so I guess I don't care.

Yorion I'm more worried about, because the deck it slots in naturally is the one that is pretty much guaranteed to be the DTB now anyway. If you look at recent Snowko/Miracles lists you'll see that it's comically easy for that deck to play extra copies of its best 60 to accomodate a total of 80. 4/5 Force becomes 6, 8 cantrips becomes 12, 4 strix becomes up to 8... apart from exactly Brainstorm, Astrolabe and some sideboard bullets the deck doesn't even suffer from a 33% increase in deck size.

Glad they nuked Zirda though.

[Barook]

Not really interested in having to bring in yard hate vs DnT. Take it as a win and move on.

How about a 80 card D&T Yorion Special?

Play Yorion for mana, then bounce it back every round for an unholy amount of triggers with Karakas + Vial @5, all while having Mom/Giver protection up. I wouldn't even be surprised if you could throw in Astrolabe in for extra draw (and mana fixing colorless lands).

Too bad D&T isn't that hot right now between Oko and Astrolabe undermining its core strategy.

[non-inflammable]

What I am saying is that Brainstorm and Force of Will matter ever less, eventually becoming irrelevant

don't be a shill for BS; Force isn't the problem = BS is always the problem.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tourname...2152312#online - 75% Brainstorm saturation eventually becoming irrelevant

banned because of BS:
SDT, DTT, DRS, Underworld Breach, Wrenn & Six, Treasure Cruise and Gitaxian Probe

[H]

banned because of BS:
SDT, DTT, DRS, Underworld Breach, Wrenn & Six, Treasure Cruise and Gitaxian Probe

An interesting theory, but your line of causation there seems spurious, honestly. Especially since SDT, DDT, DRS, TC and Probe are all banned in Modern as well, where there was never Brainstorm to consider.

There is actually a clearer line there to the status of those cards and fetchlands. But again, we can ceaselessly open this can of worms...

[PirateKing]

Impeccable timing for all us preorder-ers who just got their hands on the cards on Saturday.

Mine arrive Wednesday x.x

[Humphrey]

don't be a shill for BS; Force isn't the problem = BS is always the problem.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tourname...2152312#online - 75% Brainstorm saturation eventually becoming irrelevant

banned because of BS:
SDT, DTT, DRS, Underworld Breach, Wrenn & Six, Treasure Cruise and Gitaxian Probe

you mean fetchlands

[non-inflammable]

An interesting theory, but your line of causation there seems spurious, honestly. Especially since SDT, DDT, DRS, TC and Probe are all banned in Modern as well, where there was never Brainstorm to consider.

There is actually a clearer line there to the status of those cards and fetchlands. But again, we can ceaselessly open this can of worms...

OK, i'll take the bait. Are those cards restricted or banned in the format of "Ultimate Cosmic Power" = vintage?
Honestly, if something's restricted in vintage, is it usually banned in legacy?


If fetchlands were banned, i'd be on board with that; no more perfect mana for 4x color piles.
But then, we could add fetchlands to the list of cards banned because of BS.

[Fox]

don't be a shill for BS; Force isn't the problem = BS is always the problem.

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tourname...2152312#online - 75% Brainstorm saturation eventually becoming irrelevant

banned because of BS:
SDT, DTT, DRS, Underworld Breach, Wrenn & Six, Treasure Cruise and Gitaxian Probe

-SDT banned b/c they failed to ban Counterbalance.
-DRS banned b/c all starting point diversity destroyed by Snapcaster/Hymn (all fair decks were bad Czech), with slight exception of pseudo-Hymn (Grixis Delver with Probe/Sea/Therapy) and Elves (DRS machine gun).
-Breach and DTT banned for hating out all fair decks without blue.
-W&6 banned b/c of 1-card combo power level.
-Git Probe banned for being a cantripping Lotus Petal (b/c Delve).
-Cruise banned for being overpowered, unable to play magic against Delver into Daze into Fireblast’s +3 mana all supported by cantipping Lotus Petal (Probe).

Fetchlands are the culprit you’re looking for, not Brainstorm.

[non-inflammable]

-SDT banned b/c they failed to ban Counterbalance.
-DRS banned b/c all starting point diversity destroyed by Snapcaster/Hymn (all fair decks were bad Czech), with slight exception of pseudo-Hymn (Grixis Delver with Probe/Sea/Therapy) and Elves (DRS machine gun).
-Breach and DTT banned for hating out all fair decks without blue.
-W&6 banned b/c of 1-card combo power level.
-Git Probe banned for being a cantripping Lotus Petal (b/c Delve).
-Cruise banned for being overpowered, unable to play magic against Delver into Daze into Fireblast’s +3 mana all supported by cantipping Lotus Petal (Probe).

Fetchlands are the culprit you’re looking for, not Brainstorm.

funny how every bullet point in your post, starts with a deck that has 4 BS.

[aedemiel]

funny how every bullet point in your post, starts with a deck that has 4 BS.

Funny how BS is good mainly because of Fetchlands.

[Izor]

If you want to play that game... funny how every deck with Brainstorm plays fetchlands, but lots of decks play fetchlands but no Brainstorm...

If you really want to find the card/s that really should be banned but get a pass because they've just always kinda been there and people enjoy playing with them in older formats when they can't in newer ones...


... it's the fetchlands you want to ban. Not Brainstorm. If BS ever does get banned, it will be because of fetchlands, not vice versa. Just like the majority of cards you mentioned were banned because of fetchlands, not BS. Brainstorm is not even a good card. It doesn't even make it into Pauper Cubes and into most blue Pauper decks. It's funny how we're talking about so many things that are allegedly broken, but an untapped land that essentially makes all 5 colors when needed isn't even part of the discussion...


Now, to get that straight here, I don't want to ban fetchlands. I'm just saying Brainstorm is not the card that defines Legacy more than anything else. It's the fetchlands. Even the ABU duals are a complete joke against the fetches both in terms of utility as well as raw power level. Duals make 2 colors, fetches make up to 5.


It's actually so funny to think about. If there was a zero mana tutor for every card type (such as: search your library for a card of that type and put it into your hand.), I think we can agree all of them would be banned. However, the ten zero mana tutors we have for all mana-producing lands in your deck are legal.

[Watersaw]

Brainstorm is not even a good card.

Wipe this meme from the face of the earth. I understand this is the designated shitposting thread but we gotta draw the line SOMEWHERE

[Izor]

I mean that in the literal sense. Brainstorm is not a very good Magic card in a vacuum, which means you don't have 12+ free shuffle effects in your deck.

I welcome you to play 4 BS in a shuffle-less deck and prove me wrong. And don't claim I didn't put it into that context in my post, because I clearly did. The fact that you pulled it out of the context in which it was said doesn't change that fact.

[Watersaw]

I mean that in the literal sense. Brainstorm is not a very good Magic card in a vacuum, which means you don't have 12+ free shuffle effects in your deck.

I welcome you to play 4 BS in a shuffle-less deck and prove me wrong. And don't claim I didn't put it into that context in my post, ebcause I clearly did.

No game pieces exist in a vacuum. Without a supporting cast Mind's Desire is a worse Unexpected Results.

Screw it, as soon as I'm allowed to leave my house I'll build some janky Ux whatever pauper deck that uses Brainstorm to hit draw triggers or dig for its combo pieces/answers.

[Izor]

No game pieces exist in a vacuum. Without a supporting cast Mind's Desire is a worse Unexpected Results.

Screw it, as soon as I'm allowed to leave my house I'll build some janky Ux whatever pauper deck that uses Brainstorm to hit draw triggers or dig for its combo pieces/answers.

Sounds good. You'll find out quickly enough that there are people who have... you know... played Pauper with blue cards before and who know Brainstorm is plain unplayable if you don't have shuffle effects. Unplayable in this case means that it's outclassed by all the other cantrips.

But I'm sure you'll be the one who finds the one deck that this doesn't apply to. Good luck digging for your combo with 2 dead cards on top all the time.

Sure, no game exists in a vacuum. I was only talking about a Legacy in which fetchlands were banned/not present and said BS would not be a good card in that format. I thought that was common sense.

[bruizar]

Wipe this meme from the face of the earth. I understand this is the designated shitposting thread but we gotta draw the line SOMEWHERE

Brainstorm was always a terribly yanky card. It wasn't until Onslaught that Brainstorm became a thing. Prior to fetch Brainstorm locking yourself wasn't the outlier, it was all that the card did.

[Mr. Safety]

So now the question follows: are companions inherently broken by giving you an extra card (even a sub-optimal one) or was the real offender Lurrus/Zirda due to their particular effects? The opportunity cost of one sideboard slot for a guaranteed 8th starting card is very low. My opinion so far is that the mechanic itself won't be good for the game at all, even with Lurrrus/Zirda gone from Eternal formats, and this is just a way to buy time for selling packs. Then the mechanic will be formally eradicated with bans across formats.

Did anyone else notice that for the other formats that they might reevaluate how the mechanic works? They seem to be willing to adjust rulings for those formats but not Legacy and Vintage. If you were ever in doubt about how WOTC feels about those formats, this is about as big of a middle finger as they could throw at us.

[Hardcore]

Fetchlands are still good value with no BS in the deck, but the other way round does not hold true.
So I agree with ban the fetches position.
BTW, I bought my fetches initially to make Sensei's divining top playable in my pox deck...