Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Goblin Lackey
Standstill
Natural Order
The last challenge didn't even have a Post-Ramp deck in the Top 8. The meta is hardly settled. Since we don't even know the conversion rate of the Post decks in the time they seemed to be doing well, we don't even know that they did all that well in reality.
After the London Mulligan we'll see how Chalice, et. al. does and go from there. My actual hope is that it gives BUG decks a reason to be run in the new meta, for Decay and Trophy, but we'll see if Narset being double Blue means it's better to get access to Red Blasts or not.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
It reminds me of the blow up when Eldrazi first got big. All the talk about banning Chalice, the end of the world had come, some other hyperbole about a deck that had a semi decent answer to the formats hegemonic controller.
This will blow over much the same, with the same outcome. The top dog will stay the top dog, nothing will be different.
If there are no other concerns, of course. Even so, there are always other concerns. For example, right now, it seems it was the case that UW Blade was "better" than UWr Blade, so "all things being equal" is never all things actually all things being equal.
So, it could be the case that access to Red Blasts does not outweigh, in the future meta, access to something like Decay or Trophy. But it could be the case that Red Blasts are better. So, we'll have to see how to shakes out really. Even from a "pure Reason" standpoint, Decay does also answer Narset, but in a "worse" way. Even so, that might be "good enough" to still give it a place in the meta. Not to say that supplanting something like Grixis is likely. Rather, BUG seems like it could become a reasonable meta-choice, in the right circumstances.
Again, all the theory in the world is fine, but we will have to see what people actually do before we can even pretend to know what the second, third and so on, order effects will be. Not to mention the full effect of the London Mulligan (if we are right to suppose it comes).
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Not to steer away and turn it into a meta discussion, but I think strict UW getting better access to Back 2 Basics has something to do with it too. I could see why BUG has some appeal, but red having stuff like Wear/Tear and such plus the red blasts is probably better in most cases. But who knows?
Right, right, but that's sort of what I mean, there are always more factors than just the prima facie point at hand. In fact, this sort of illustrates a prospective broad point, where the case must be made against Red as a splash color, not really for it. BUG decks can often "get away" with not running Red Blast by virtue of having threats that Red Blasts don't answer. Well, at least, in the old days, before Angler, because now Grixis has Push and Angler, combining to marginalize the return on being in Green over Red.
This is all part of why I think Brother Deathrite was made to fall on a sword in error, but whatever, that ship sailed. Still, there are very few reasons, at the moment, to add Green to your UBx deck, over Red. I'd personally like to see that change. Maybe Modern Horizons can deliver a "fixed" DRS or a "buffed" BOP and get us there.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
"We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."
There's no reason to ban CB. It's a fair card without Top. Meanwhile Top is a huge timewaster, they love banning it in all formats.
There's no reason to ban Hymn. It's not broken compared to other 2 cmc and 3 cmc cards available to BUG and Grixis control. DRS is a 1-mana Planeswalker.
There's also no reason to ban Ancient Tomb just because a few Post decks are actually making top 8s instead of Brainstorms. It's a key piece of so many diverse decks. Without it there would be even less reason not to run Brainstorm.
Top unfortunately makes a pretty great combo with bolas' citadel.
-rob
You can look back a ways in this thread and see that I've pointed out Ancient Tomb as needing to be watched long before they printed these new cards; the new cards simply made it more blatantly obvious. The looming mulligan change would make Tomb a more negative force in the format ~ i.e. it's not really a mulligan if you're able to find a Tomb.
DRS is the only [non-Zombardent] 1-drop playable black creature (that can come down turn 1) in legacy - they have not filled this gaping hole. DRS is interactive, and while it's annoying that Fetchlands are legal, there are bigger Fetchland abusers than DRS (mainly Brainstorm). You can't keep ramping up Tomb's position in the meta and justify denying colored decks their main mana advantage tool.
Hymn with perfect mana fixing is not a reasonable card. It brings nothing positive to the format, particularly with Snapcaster. Hymn (and other discard spam) being legal is a primary argument for unbanning SDT, which uses a zone discard can't touch (especially instant speed discard). Now if DRS is legal, we already know that there are only 3 ways to use it: Czech, Grixis Delver, and Elves. It's really easy to have a good matchup vs the last two; but no matter what your DRS-using deck does, you can't leverage it b/c of Hymn Snap Hymn. The ability to use DRS differently is absolutely demolished b/c of Hymn to Tourach specifically. You have to be able to beat Shatter/Shock (Kcomm) and a 1/1 flying deathtouch - this requires having a hand and not being forced to play everything you draw the moment you draw it.
CB is in a class of its own with it's unsupported, albeit theoretical, 1-sided ceiling of counter everything your opponent casts with zero need to sustain. SDT wasting time had everything to do with the card Counterbalance incentivizing multiple spins per turn cycle, in a way that no other card could. Even Fetchlands encourage less SDT activations than CB.
It's a way to insert an assumption about what the format should be without specifically naming it and thus have it able to be refuted.
"Positive" is just what anyone would term "the sort of thing I want in the format." Framed with the word "positive" so that the implication is that it is, of course, a "good thing" but without actually bothering to elucidate what "good" actually is in the context.
See?
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Getting better mulligans by virtue of have “double-bonus“ lands + buffing the mulligan system is a dangerous combination. This is a net negative external game structure mechanic.
I'm not saying you a "wrong" to want those things. But your post actually perfectly encapsulates how in the end, it's just preference. In fact, you highlight the fact that you think "interaction," whatever that is, is "good" but you still want "prison" a rather "non-interactive" thing.
This thread is probably far more preference "masked" as "objective criterion" than it is anything else. There isn't anything wrong with have preferences, in fact, just the opposite. The fact is though, it is and always will be bias. The question is, which bias "wins out?"
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
None of them, because we are ultimately powerless to change anything. This is a venting service, not a relevant discussion in a diplomatic sense. Nothing is lost or gained.
It's taken me years to be willing to read shit and not desire to prove my point. But for a long time I did and that was very toxic. That toxicity is limited to this one thread, letting it collect the shit other threads would otherwise have to deal with.
Well, in a sense, yes, but also no, because part of what Wizards seem to operate on is the "perceived meta" or "perceived format." So, when people here (and other places too) were apt to crown Grixis Delver the "obviously best deck" it really, in all likelyhood, did put a target on Deathrite.
So, the consequences of what we do here likely are real, be it minute or not, they do exist. And the personal cost of it all is a real cost. People will no doubt laugh that off, but actual real research does seem to show that the idea of "catharsis" is something of a farce. But I am likely getting away from the point.
Yeah, but like I was saying, this sort of "toxicity" does have a "real-life" cost. Because if you just engage in a ratification of confirmation bias and never investigate that and other biases, in the context of a children's card game, it is very unlikely that one would be willing to do it in the "real world" where they are real consequences for that entrenchment in certain ideas (or ideals).
But I think most here likely take my attempts at a more philosophical approach as a joke, and philosophy itself as a joke. That's fine, but my hope is that I can do a half decent job enough to help at least someone realize that it's a serious point and there is some merit to taking it seriously.
But, hey, maybe that is just my own bias in action...
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
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