View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #22061

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    I think they dispensed with that idea when they dispensed the idea of "scheduled" updates.

    Now, things will be addressed as, and when, it is deemed "necessary."
    That's the price to pay for supporting two online systems and a relentless schedule of releases, things need to happen there and then.

    At leats the young kids are getting what they want, constant novelty so that they don't wear out their reduced attention span.

  2. #22062

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Who would actually mourn if Planeswalkers got the Ante/Dexterity/Conspiracy treatment, for the same reasons

  3. #22063

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by LOLWut View Post
    Who would actually mourn if Planeswalkers got the Ante/Dexterity/Conspiracy treatment, for the same reasons
    Don't tease me, that would be amazing.

  4. #22064
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I'd poop my pants from a walker ban. I would truly be happy to see a walker null rod (not one that is one sided and costs 6 Mana). Even if it's just an eternal only legal set I would love it
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  5. #22065

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I'd poop my pants from a walker ban. I would truly be happy to see a walker null rod (not one that is one sided and costs 6 Mana). Even if it's just an eternal only legal set I would love it
    From what people have said, WotC--who presumably have limited time to think about topics, don't see a huge amount of pressure/feedback, and don't see forums, discords, or subreddits--really can be affected by things like tweetstorms/emails to individuals, and pizza sent to them, so get on that, frens.

  6. #22066

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I'd poop my pants from a walker ban. I would truly be happy to see a walker null rod (not one that is one sided and costs 6 Mana). Even if it's just an eternal only legal set I would love it
    Either that or more cards like Assassin's Trophy and Murderous Rider. Cards you could maindeck that also affect planeswalkers. Although the problem with removal cards is that the opponent already gets one activation with the walker so they come out ahead.

    A null rod for walkers is ok. A bit narrow I think though.


    I wonder if cards like Veil of Summer are on the watchlist. The amount of things it does is insane and it cantrips to boot. It's like a Cryptic Command at times.

  7. #22067

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilkin View Post
    A null rod for walkers is ok. A bit narrow I think though.
    How about something like a Null Rod but "Activated abilities of noncreature, nonland permanents can't be activated unless they're mana abilities"?

    Maybe a White Enchantment or something.

  8. #22068

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    More like city in a bottle but for PWs. If Iím gonna wish, Iíd wish big!

    More seriously tho, they are a pain, but Iíve just chosen to try and adapt. Itís easier said than done, and makes legacy quite mundane.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Legacy decks: mono U painter, strawberry shortcake, imperial painter, solidarity, burn
    EDH decks: zedruu voltron, rakdos the defiler, persistent petitioners, blind seer

  9. #22069
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour_Asses View Post
    How about something like a Null Rod but "Activated abilities of noncreature, nonland permanents can't be activated unless they're mana abilities"?

    Maybe a White Enchantment or something.
    A white hatebear!! :)

  10. #22070

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by LOLWut View Post
    From what people have said, WotC--who presumably have limited time to think about topics, don't see a huge amount of pressure/feedback, and don't see forums, discords, or subreddits--really can be affected by things like tweetstorms/emails to individuals, and pizza sent to them, so get on that, frens.
    Just stick a road sign on their doorstep.

  11. #22071

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylert View Post
    A white hatebear!! :)
    Haha, yes! It's crazy but it just might work!

  12. #22072
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    A fair hatebear would just be "Planeswalkers can't gain loyalty"
    Players could still play them, use the abilities, but it would be a one way trip in the end.
    Give it protection from Planeswalkers as well for flavor
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  13. #22073
    Hymn-Slinger
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    A fair hatebear would just be "Planeswalkers can't gain loyalty"
    Players could still play them, use the abilities, but it would be a one way trip in the end.
    Give it protection from Planeswalkers as well for flavor
    Yeah, I like this. Gives you options to be rid of it, even from Planewalkers (like Lili -2) but very conditionally.

    I think just blanket banning Planewalkers is a terrible idea, since then they game just becomes clearly about the Creature/removal paradigm, with a dash of Artifacts or Enchantments. Removal is just way too efficient to go back to that, in my opinion.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    óKaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  14. #22074
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylert View Post
    A white hatebear!! :)
    White hatebears were powercreeped quite a while ago. 2/2 bears with no combat-relevant abilities are severely outdated. Thalia still being the gold standard for white hatebears is a testament who WotC fucked up white while everything was powercreeped to ridiculous levels, especially green.

  15. #22075
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    White hatebears were powercreeped quite a while ago. 2/2 bears with no combat-relevant abilities are severely outdated. Thalia still being the gold standard for white hatebears is a testament who WotC fucked up white while everything was powercreeped to ridiculous levels, especially green.
    Thalia still seems fine imo (though maybe at this point at least being an X/2, maybe 3/1 could be reasonable). It would be tough I think to make a good white hate bear that is both powerful and flexible enough to be worth it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  16. #22076
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    1) Wrenn and Six was a fine card, but starting loyalty needed to be 1 (and emblem ability -5) or possibly needed to be costed higher at RG1 with starting loyalty 2 (emblem ability -6) to increase build constraints and delay Wasteland incursion.

    2) Oko needs to be banned in Legacy. When the format starts playing a card or playing against it (when a card "warps" the format), it's best if that card is banned and the format returns to a more balanced state. Most fair and control decks play Oko - Oko appears in Tempo (RUG and BUG), Control (UWGr), Bant, Urza Artifacts, Jund / Aggro Lands, Lands (35 land version), and the Ugrb Pile decks. If your deck doesn't play Oko, you have to have a plan against it. Combo decks plan to be quicker (Storm - TES, ANT, Sneak and Show, Omnishow, Reanimator, Dark Depths, Artifact Recursion decks, Dredge, Hogaak BridgeVine) and other decks do not run the color support, like Death and Taxes and Grixis decks. Otherwise, every deck in the format is playing Oko and many decks are splashing into blue and/or green that historically did not due to Oko and Veil of Summer.

    3) Veil of Summer needs to be banned in Legacy. Veil of Summer was not meant to be used offensively, it should not be a weapon for combo decks to combo off behind. Veil of Summer is meant to protect your hand from Thoughtseize or your creature from Abrupt Decay. A combo decks should be running discard spells, not Veil of Summer. Also, Veil of Summer's inclusion in main deck control decks shows the cards inherent power level. I like the concept, but there needs to be a new card that is less powerful than Veil of Summer, but more powerful than Autumn's Veil.
    "Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."

  17. #22077
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Wizard View Post
    3) Veil of Summer needs to be banned in Legacy. Veil of Summer was not meant to be used offensively, it should not be a weapon for combo decks to combo off behind. Veil of Summer is meant to protect your hand from Thoughtseize or your creature from Abrupt Decay. A combo decks should be running discard spells, not Veil of Summer. Also, Veil of Summer's inclusion in main deck control decks shows the cards inherent power level. I like the concept, but there needs to be a new card that is less powerful than Veil of Summer, but more powerful than Autumn's Veil.
    The main problem with cards like Veil of Summer (and Mental Misstep) is that if your best answers against blue decks can be run by blue decks, then WotC is doing it wrong. But sadly, that's the state of modern card design.

  18. #22078

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    @Water_Wizard Isn't that just what players do, though, play a color because of a good card? According to MTGTop8, in the last two weeks, Veil is being played at a rate of 14.2% and 2.4 copies. People play white for Swords, which is at 22.2% and 3.9; same for Bolt at 21.6% and 3.9, and Thoughtseize at 16% and 3.2.

    It's just a new card people aren't used to, and maybe it's also because it's green, and anti-blue and black. It's not dominating the format numbers-wise. I could see people making the same arguments about Bolt if it had just been printed; it's not like its effect is a Mental Misstep or YawgWill.

  19. #22079

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Isn't a reasonable occurrence comparison between a two-color hate card against some of the mainline staples of the format kind of a strong early warning indicator? And subsequently reinforcing the premise that it's a problematic card? To me, the idea that Veil of Summer and Thoughtseize are comparably close is a very bad thing, not a justification of the opposite.

  20. #22080
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by LOLWut View Post
    @Water_Wizard Isn't that just what players do, though, play a color because of a good card? According to MTGTop8, in the last two weeks, Veil is being played at a rate of 14.2% and 2.4 copies. People play white for Swords, which is at 22.2% and 3.9; same for Bolt at 21.6% and 3.9, and Thoughtseize at 16% and 3.2.

    It's just a new card people aren't used to, and maybe it's also because it's green, and anti-blue and black. It's not dominating the format numbers-wise. I could see people making the same arguments about Bolt if it had just been printed; it's not like its effect is a Mental Misstep or YawgWill.
    Thank you for your response and thank you for the statistics.

    I think you are helping me prove my point. Once Veil of Summer is more popular than Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm, we have a problem. The cards you sighted are all staples in their colors that perform primary actions of the colors - black - discard, red - direct damage, white - creature removal for life gain (STP is considered the greatest creature removal card of all time); Veil of Summer is a green instant that counterspells, draws cards, and offers permanent protection at instant speed - none of these functions are historically green's strong suits. The fact that Veil of Summer is being played so heavily, and by decks that historically do not play green, proves it is over-powered and needs to be banned. Oko is the same way, once decks (35 Lands, for example), that are historically green and red, start splashing blue for Oko, and UW Miracle Control morphs to add green (and maybe red) for Oko, Veil, and Ice-Fang, and Show and Tell, Omniscience, and Eureka decks are all splashing green for Veil, and Epic Storm is only playing Veil and no discard because it does not want to cast its own discard into a Veil (a sign the card is overplayed) and offensively castling Veil is more powerful than discard - one resolved Veil negates infinite counterspells or Counterbalance, whereas discard can do nothing against permanents and only remove one counterspell.

    I like the concept of Veil. However, it is being used offensively, and the card needs to be used defensively. If Veil were used by historically green decks, I would say it is a good fit. Veil has Storm excluding discard spells and including Veil (and perhaps Defense Grid) and that is no good.
    "Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."

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