All B/R update speculation.

[taconaut]

It's crazy to me how many people in here are looking at DnT and thinking, "man, this deck is awful to play against, but is it awful enough? Clearly it needs more wretched, binary bears."

[Whitefaces]

I've just found this event where 100% of the decks have Stoneforge Mystic, 0 DRS or Delver, 50% Brainstorm.

[Mr. Safety]

I've just found this event where 100% of the decks have Stoneforge Mystic, 0 DRS or Delver, 50% Brainstorm.

Dude, you trollin'?

[maharis]

I think your over thinking it. Nothing you do outside of going nuclear on the format will solve Xerox. Perhaps that is a goal but I don't think it's a worthy one. Too much damage would be wrought upon the format for not a large amount of gains. The moment we look at taking out Gurmag in Legacy is the moment we have overreached.

There are individual cards from Xerox that I do believe should take a hit, but the cards that surround them like Angler, Pyromancer, Mentor or Strix I feel are not worthy of debate. It's not that these are not strong effects, it's just that these effects are structurally dependent on more egregious offenders.

Even so, I think if you took out Brainstorm and left the rest of Xerox in tack, we would be fine. Sure, Mentor will still fuck your day sometimes, but that's Legacy. But since Brainstorm is unlikely to see a ban, this is all for naught anyway.

Well, that was my point. The goals here are so unclear. What do we want? The closest thing I can identify is that people want TX to be the dominant deck construction theory in the format, but want it to be applied in a variety of decks. That isn't possible as long as so many of the individually powerful cards in the format drive you toward a single strategy. In this case a large variety of printings have made UBx value/midrange the best thing to be doing by far. The threats are way too above the curve for there to be any true competition. That consolidates deck construction and the format.

I think it's interesting how people dismiss Gurmag Angler as a problem so readily. In the original poll for this thread, Tarmogoyf has the second-most votes. When a beater is too efficient in the TX shell, it drives all its competition out of the format. For a while, that was Tarmogoyf. Today, it's clearly Angler. A one-mana 5/5 is completely insane. Especially as most playable removal has consolidated around the "CMC or less" template. Why do you want to play a Tarmogoyf that can be affected after it's on board and killed by more stuff, or a Knight that makes you tap 3 lands to put it into play (and have 3 lands in your GY to make it the same size), or a Mongoose that will be smaller than this all the time, when you can just use the dreck in your GY to make this a permanent 5/5? Why would you play a 3- or 4-mana 5/5 beater with a drawback, like most black creatures had historically? Why would you try to build some synergistic board when you can just play the best of everything and still get a 5/5? What are you scared of, RIP? That's just as good against the competition, so it's barely a check on this card at all.

Baleful Strix is blazing archon/removal/cantrip/force pitch/jitte carrier all in one. Compare it to Elvish Visionary, Coiling Oracle, Dark Confidant.

Snapcaster Mage gets more goodies all the time. Is Plow good? How about Plow with a 2/1 body attached for 3 at instant speed? Or whatever other super busted 1-mana spell you want? Hey they just printed 1-mana black removal that isn't crap for the first time ever. Compare Eternal Witness, Fleshbag Marauder, Bone Shredder, Fire Imp.

You see where you end up. It's why I don't care about DRS all that much. To me it's just right there with all these other cards, with the slight caveat that it actually would be interesting and good outside the same old Xerox/U shell. Very good, powerful card, sure. But at least it's got some broad application. It's just that the UBxx mess is too thick right now to justify anything else. Go watch Deadguy vs. Grixis Delver for the win and in to top 8 on Saturday. Deadguy player has a clean mana curve, cheap interaction, solid manabase, his own deathrites, and none of it matters.

Ban Brainstorm, Deathrite, whatever. It's not a one-card solution at this point. It's years of printings that have made one particular strategy better than all competitors.

I mean brainstorm probably is too strong, but I agree that I'm just done fighting it. I'm all in on blue cards now personally because I'm tired of losing to worse players with better cards.

Yeah it breaks my heart to put together a deck and feel like I've got a plan for the good decks/strategies, and then just get fucking steamrolled by the efficiency of the format. Was gonna play pox tonight but will probably lose a die roll and get embarrassed so why bother?

[janchu88]

f**ing ban this retarded gitaxian probe finally. I feel like its been an eternity since i have been preaching this. The card takes the skill out of the game, enables perfect non games and fuels the super balanced delve mechanic because why f***ing not. I cant f***ing stand that card anymore. The card doesnt add any positive aspect to the game, its just annoying and a complete design failure enabling 56 card decks with potential synergies for cantripping durdle.

Ive been saying that for a long time but i just played a game which showcased this perfectly. Kept a deathrite, daze, etc hand against grixis and it should have been an ok starting point... Also tried to keep my opponents graveyard at bay with DRS, kept him at 0 cards to deny early Angler as good as possible. No problem, drop Pyromancer, daze your removal and chain Probe ("Oh, you have no anwser in hand?"), Draw another Probe, Ponder, Probe, fetch and follow the setup with Gurmag angler - All enabled by this brilliant card design.

Shit like this shouldnt be possible and i could continue with arguments against the card but it all boils down to extremely shitty card design and a big mistake they should finally take care of.

edit: Plus it wouldnt really hurt any of the decks that play probe, those decks would eassily be playable without it except for taking out one factor allowing huge variance and non skill perfect information games

[KærvekTheMerciless]

f**ing ban this retarded gitaxian probe finally. I feel like its been an eternity since i have been preaching this. The card takes the skill out of the game, enables perfect non games and fuels the super balanced delve mechanic because why f***ing not. I cant f***ing stand that card anymore. The card doesnt add any positive aspect to the game, its just annoying and a complete design failure enabling 56 card decks with potential synergies for cantripping durdle.

Ive been saying that for a long time but i just played a game which showcased this perfectly. Kept a deathrite, daze, etc hand against grixis and it should have been an ok starting point... Also tried to keep my opponents graveyard at bay with DRS, kept him at 0 cards to deny early Angler as good as possible. No problem, drop Pyromancer, daze your removal and chain Probe ("Oh, you have no anwser in hand?"), Draw another Probe, Ponder, Probe, fetch and follow the setup with Gurmag angler - All enabled by this brilliant card design.

Shit like this shouldnt be possible and i could continue with arguments against the card but it all boils down to extremely shitty card design and a big mistake they should finally take care of.

edit: Plus it wouldnt really hurt any of the decks that play probe, those decks would eassily be playable without it except for taking out one factor allowing huge variance and non skill perfect information games

I'm inclined to agree. Probe causes Storm players to know precisely when they can go off, which albeit is useful information, but I'll give you a scenario. I recently played against Cook. He had no discard in his open, a Probe, and a t2 kill. I had Chalice, but no accelerant to drop t1 Chalice for 1. So I play a land and pass. He Probes, sees the Chalice, and goes for it. If Probe didn't exist, that game would have turned out different.

Narrow example, and nothing probably would have changed, but that one card in many different decks is just plain busted. Oh, sensitive combo deck? Run Probe, because free perfect information is so god damn good.

Much to my dismay, I do see the TX design flood in Legacy. I appreciate and value builders. Always have. The fact that you took your brain, your time, your effort in testing, your lumps and bruises in losses, I will always value the hard workers. TX as a shell is just too fucking cheap. You could run TX with Scaled Wurms and still stomp ass. That tells me that as a whole, Legacy is mostly screwed. That some 10 year old with mommy's credit card can netdeck a TX shell and go top8 tournaments with it is just plain sickening. I believe, with all of my being, that this was NOT what they intended Magic to be. This was NOT the vision.

Damn you, TurboXerox. Damn you right to fucking hell.

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[KærvekTheMerciless]

Maybe some super narrow cards would work?

Like,
W
2/1
If an instant would cost 0 or 1 mana, it instead costs 2

That specifically just hits Daze/Force/Brainstorm/Thought Scour/Opt (well, I guess StP too), but its narrow, it's universal, and it wouldn't see play in Xerox, while hating on it really well.

You could do something similar in red or black.

R
2/1
If an instant would cost 0 or 1 mana, ~ deals 2 damage to that spells controller

B
2/1
If an instant would cost 0 or 1 mana, that spells controller discards a card

I mean, hating on Xerox isn't hard, heck, those cards could be printed in standard and have ZERO effect on the format, while hugely shaking up Legacy. I mean heck, make it a cycle.

G
2/1
If an instant would cost 0 or 1 mana, target opponent of that spells controller puts a 1/1 token into play

U
0/1
If an instant would cost 0 or 1 mana, target opponent of that spells controller Fateseals 1

These creatures.......jesus GOD I want them. Black, red and green, please. Now. Lmao

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[iOWN]

Why do we need more maindeckable graveyard hate? It eliminates so many fringe cards and strategies from viability. If anything they should start banning overpowered hatebears so that "distributed win conditions + piles of efficient hate/control" aren't the only good strategies.

My vote is either Probe or Omni. Either one could go. Probe has what I call Mental Misstep Syndrome. It's popping up in decks it doesn't belong in, just because reasons. Like seeing Surgical on the board for Miracles, or Gut Shot for Death and Taxes. It perpetuates the lazy-ass "Oh, it's free, why not run it" mentality. And that's exactly what got Misstep banned.

I wouldn't mind seeing Surgical go for this reason.

[Problem4tic]

Someone accidently set off PSully on the Banning of DRS.

https://go.twitch.tv/videos/184065868?t=22h42m10s

He's amazing, still.

listen this again

[CptHaddock]

Someone accidently set off PSully on the Banning of DRS.

https://go.twitch.tv/videos/184065868?t=22h42m10s

He's amazing, still.

Isn't this the same foolish argument he made for DTT/TC?

[H]

Isn't this the same foolish argument he made for DTT/TC?

I think he wanted to see more of what the meta would do in that case, but yes, it does upset him that people complain when the cards suck and also when the cards are strong.

Of course, it's easy to lambast his position when it's probably demonstrable that TC and DTT were simply not healthy for the format. If you want to make the case that Deathrite Shaman is somehow as powerful or as format constricting as either of those, I'll listen, but I really doubt I am going to buy it.

[Ace/Homebrew]

I'll give you a scenario. I recently played against Cook. He had no discard in his open, a Probe, and a t2 kill. I had Chalice, but no accelerant to drop t1 Chalice for 1. So I play a land and pass. He Probes, sees the Chalice, and goes for it. If Probe didn't exist, that game would have turned out different.

The deck doesn't just lose Probe and become a 56-card deck. What would Probe have been replaced with? Discard? Then the game would have ended identically but you'd have had one less card in hand when you lost.

That some 10 year old with mommy's credit card can netdeck a TX shell and go top8 tournaments with it is just plain sickening.

What part sickens you the most? That the player is 10? That their parent paid for the cards? Is it less sickening if it's a 30-year-old who spends their own money?

I believe, with all of my being, that this was NOT what they intended Magic to be. This was NOT the vision.

Who is they? Richard Garfield? Current WotC leadership? Members of the old guard? Pretty sure the new guard's vision of 'What Magic should be' is Standard.

[non-inflammable]

Since BS can't be banned because the world would end; the segue was a cry for, "We must have answers to fight the blue stew!"

I have never seen a Spirit of the Labyrinth in play...

I mentioned this Leyline somewhere years ago, but decided to put in an hour:

[Julian23]

RIP Elves

[JackaBo]

P Sullivan on DRS ban
https://go.twitch.tv/videos/184065868?t=22h42m10s
Pretty entertaining

[KærvekTheMerciless]

The deck doesn't just lose Probe and become a 56-card deck. What would Probe have been replaced with? Discard? Then the game would have ended identically but you'd have had one less card in hand when you lost.

This is suggestible, by variance, but also, improbable. It is foolish to suggest that a random selection of 1 card from his deck would have landed the exact card that would have accomplished the same result. It's also called cherry picking. And to think that someone like Cook would run what, 11 discards main? Yeah, right.

What part sickens you the most? That the player is 10? That their parent paid for the cards? Is it less sickening if it's a 30-year-old who spends their own money?

What sickens me is that this is somehow acceptable in a game that, since its inception, has been about what YOU can do with YOUR ability. Creating an alternate scenario, with a 30-something and specifying that it's his money, that's just you splitting hairs instead of seeing the point.

Who is they? Richard Garfield? Current WotC leadership? Members of the old guard? Pretty sure the new guard's vision of 'What Magic should be' is Standard.

I didn't say "should be". I said "intended". I said "vision". And I'm not talking about Standard. I'm talking about Legacy. Obviously they have to administrate more than one format here. When the powers that be created Legacy, their intention certainly couldn't have been to create a format where one archetype rules all. That's not healthy at all.

Perhaps, instead of typing some hamhanded rebuttal, you should actually read things, and respond with relevance. Might make things easier.

Watch, his next move will be ad hominem.

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[non-inflammable]

RIP Elves

sorry julian, didn't see you there.
Call it The Last Elven Stronghold and exempt green draw, just because.

[maharis]

I think he wanted to see more of what the meta would do in that case, but yes, it does upset him that people complain when the cards suck and also when the cards are strong.

Of course, it's easy to lambast his position when it's probably demonstrable that TC and DTT were simply not healthy for the format. If you want to make the case that Deathrite Shaman is somehow as powerful or as format constricting as either of those, I'll listen, but I really doubt I am going to buy it.

I honestly think DTT is fine power-level wise. It just made a deck people hate playing against (myself included) very good.

I think the same is true of DRS. People just don't like playing against the UBx soup and point to the card that appears in every iteration of it from Czech to Aluren to Shardless. The difference is it's a lot easier to nerf a combo deck than a fair deck.

Personally, I would've liked to see the format with DTT enabling less busted control and combo decks than Miracles and Omnitell by leaving it but banning really stupid binary cards like Counterbalance and Omniscience. It's likely those archetypes would've still been good and there would've been a meaningful decision about using your GY either proactively for Angler or reactively by looking for answers. It also would've mitigated the impact of Leovold in the U mirrors by not being an actual draw, which meant that it wouldn't be a race to grind out the other person then slam your one-sided hosing win con.

But, I say that while also believing that the format would be even BETTER had that mechanic never returned in Khans. The next Delve card up is always a problem. TC, DTT, Angler, and Become Immense are incredibly frustrating because they are always essentially heavily discounted versions of strong effects. The fact that you can use the cantrips to streamline whatever plan you have with these cards while also fueling their discount is incredibly constricting. Other cheap effects on color/theme with that mechanic like Prowess and the YP version of it, or the efficiency of things like DRS, Fatal Push and Baleful Strix, just homogenize more and more.

[Ellomdian]

Someone accidently set off PSully on the Banning of DRS.

https://go.twitch.tv/videos/184065868?t=22h42m10s

He's amazing, still.

I am starting to catch up on Modern (thanks GP Trios for generating interest in me playing Legacy for teams... :p) and I was ecstatic to see that PSully was doing commentary again. Between the Bingo thing and this rant, it's one of the more entertaining SCG casts I've seen in a while.

Can't we all just agree that Chalice is obviously the real issue here and needs to be banned immediately?

I wonder if anything will change in January. If something is going to happen, that's the date. It has to be to give run up to the Pro Tour that will contain Legacy. Still can't believe I am writing those words and not in jest.

Bwhahahahaha.. oh, wait, you're serious? If Chalice is the 'problem' and they actually ban it, I'm likely all-in on Storm with major MD Leovold hate. And (as mentioned above) I'm SUPER psyched about Trios. Force these standard players to care about matches that make their poor heads spin.

Yes, I think we all can agree that legacy will be better when they print Rest in Peace bear. Can we get a petition going?

Someone already mentioned Samurai of the Pale Curtain, but, seriously? I'm obliged to quote someone who said it better than I can...

It's crazy to me how many people in here are looking at DnT and thinking, "man, this deck is awful to play against, but is it awful enough? Clearly it needs more wretched, binary bears."

QFT.

Pretty crazy that the top 3 decks at EW didn't run basic lands, and there was only one deck in the top 8 that ran any basics at all.

Not interested in seeing bans, but that's pretty nuts.

People really need to be talking about this when they talk about format health overall. Wasteland is no longer feared, I haven't seen a B2B or a Price in months - for whatever reason, old-fashioned Tempo (looking at you RUG delver) is apparently criminally underrepresented in peoples' local meta. I don't claim to be a Delver master, but I feel like the push in aggro towards Grixis and Czech Pile has made plays like Stifle-the-fetch much less fearsome. People are just setting up shop on both sides and hoping they are better at it than their opponents.

I have never seen a Spirit of the Labyrinth in play...

I think that says more about how long you've been active in the Legacy scene than anything else. If you want to actually beat the blue decks reliably with your DnT pile, it's an easy include. Unfortunately people seem to be more concerned with playing a bad Chalice, or suggesting made-up-cards to 'fix' a problem that doesn't actually exist, than actually trying to win games.

[Megadeus]

sorry julian, didn't see you there.
Call it The Last Elven Stronghold and exempt green draw, just because.

I would then play painter to name green so my brainstorm gets around it. Broke the format again