View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #22001
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by phonics View Post
    Honestly it is way too late to nerf blue out of the format because the format has been warped so long that r&ds solution was to give many non blue strategies powerful dumb stuff to counter not having relative card selection.
    Is it just I who feel like this has changed? Warning, this post is based on feelings.. I don't have numbers to back it yet, but it used to feel like blue was the be all end all. Back when Miracles and later Grixis Delver, at some point Grixis Control, were the best decks, it felt like you had to play a blue deck to stand a chance. I felt like it cleared up a bit last spring.. Several people were commenting on, in different forums, that Legacy was the best it had ever been.. Then we had some powerful releases, quick meta game changes then W6 slowly took over and stabilized as the unthreatened king of the format. With it gone, I imagine a wider set of strategies are again viable. Hogaak powered up graveyard shenanigans. Depths was powerful for a long time, elvish reclaimer helped a lot there [in keeping it a competitive non-blue strategy without ruining the format, I think]. Moon strategies are going to come back. Karn enables several types of sol land based strategies (Painter, Bomberman). Death and Taxes looks good, my guessing. Maverick seems good, I just watched this week's Legacy Premier League (amazing quality, watch it) and it looked great vs Grixis Delver. I hear Nic Fit (with Oko) is doing great, don't expect it to be tier 1 but it's nice to hear.. There is Urza and Emry allowing artifact strategies too, independently of Karn (and probably Brainstorm). . Oko is a bit worrisome but my guess is it'll be fine, we'll have to wait and see. It didn't crush the format yet though, did it? Reanimator and Storm are probably decent to great options, Sneak and Show is back.. Echo of Eons + Narset is basically a new archetype.. And there are Mystic Forge artifact storm-like decks..

    It's too early to say but it seems like all these strategies are viable. It didn't feel like brainstorm was necessary this last spring and now both Veil of Summer and Once upon a Time have been printed and they help green decks interact with both counterspells, discard and removal (all of grixis control basically) and adds consistency.. Oh yeah, there's also a new mulligan rule that helps decks like DnT and Maverick get off to a good start at least, closing the distance in consistency to the Brainstorm decks..

    Ah yeah, we also got Ouphe to keep artifact strategies in check, force of vigor to let graveyard decks interact with hate, force of negation to increase interaction with fast combo and graveyard shenanigans, I'm probably missing some but all of these cards seem to lead to more interaction without punishing any decks out of existence.. Narset does interact with csntrips and csn be played in Tezz, Karn decks as a blue Chains of Mephistopheles substitute..

  2. #22002

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I'm totally on your side. Legacy is at its best right now.
    Playing this format for nearly 10 years now and I'm really happy with it.

    Edit: I even liked it with W6 :p

  3. #22003

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by phonics View Post
    Well the main takeaway is that legacy players can basically be separated into people that like the format because of the large card pool, who would enjoy blue not having a monopoly on card selection (and stack interaction to a lesser extent) and opening up other colors, and those that like legacy because it offers a level of card selection not available in any other format, who therefore only care about playing blue because it offers it. There is basically no common ground between these two positions hence there is no real solution. Honestly it is way too late to nerf blue out of the format because the format has been warped so long that r&ds solution was to give many non blue strategies powerful dumb stuff to counter not having relative card selection.
    Excellent post. Then w6 gets banned but brainstorn is still fine . It's impossible to compete with brainstorm and not get banned.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

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    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  4. #22004
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by phonics View Post
    Well the main takeaway is that legacy players can basically be separated into people that like the format because of the large card pool, who would enjoy blue not having a monopoly on card selection (and stack interaction to a lesser extent) and opening up other colors, and those that like legacy because it offers a level of card selection not available in any other format, who therefore only care about playing blue because it offers it. There is basically no common ground between these two positions hence there is no real solution. Honestly it is way too late to nerf blue out of the format because the format has been warped so long that r&ds solution was to give many non blue strategies powerful dumb stuff to counter not having relative card selection.
    Well put. And most of us who don't like the latter position have already quit, like me.

  5. #22005

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition View Post
    Well put.
    Not at all! What he wrote is simply generalising and at least for me and for lots of other players I know, untrue.

  6. #22006

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    Is it just I who feel like this has changed? Warning, this post is based on feelings.. I don't have numbers to back it yet, but it used to feel like blue was the be all end all. Back when Miracles and later Grixis Delver, at some point Grixis Control, were the best decks, it felt like you had to play a blue deck to stand a chance. I felt like it cleared up a bit last spring.. Several people were commenting on, in different forums, that Legacy was the best it had ever been.. Then we had some powerful releases, quick meta game changes then W6 slowly took over and stabilized as the unthreatened king of the format. With it gone, I imagine a wider set of strategies are again viable. Hogaak powered up graveyard shenanigans. Depths was powerful for a long time, elvish reclaimer helped a lot there [in keeping it a competitive non-blue strategy without ruining the format, I think]. Moon strategies are going to come back. Karn enables several types of sol land based strategies (Painter, Bomberman). Death and Taxes looks good, my guessing. Maverick seems good, I just watched this week's Legacy Premier League (amazing quality, watch it) and it looked great vs Grixis Delver. I hear Nic Fit (with Oko) is doing great, don't expect it to be tier 1 but it's nice to hear.. There is Urza and Emry allowing artifact strategies too, independently of Karn (and probably Brainstorm). . Oko is a bit worrisome but my guess is it'll be fine, we'll have to wait and see. It didn't crush the format yet though, did it? Reanimator and Storm are probably decent to great options, Sneak and Show is back.. Echo of Eons + Narset is basically a new archetype.. And there are Mystic Forge artifact storm-like decks..

    It's too early to say but it seems like all these strategies are viable. It didn't feel like brainstorm was necessary this last spring and now both Veil of Summer and Once upon a Time have been printed and they help green decks interact with both counterspells, discard and removal (all of grixis control basically) and adds consistency.. Oh yeah, there's also a new mulligan rule that helps decks like DnT and Maverick get off to a good start at least, closing the distance in consistency to the Brainstorm decks..

    Ah yeah, we also got Ouphe to keep artifact strategies in check, force of vigor to let graveyard decks interact with hate, force of negation to increase interaction with fast combo and graveyard shenanigans, I'm probably missing some but all of these cards seem to lead to more interaction without punishing any decks out of existence.. Narset does interact with csntrips and csn be played in Tezz, Karn decks as a blue Chains of Mephistopheles substitute..

    I pretty much agree with your sentiment that it has moved relatively in the right direction. I remember making a post probably a year or so back in this thread about them needing to print things that give things that blue had to other colors, so that other colors could do 'blue things' just as much as blue is able to do the 'things' every other color is good at because it has superior access to card selection. They have printed a ton of cards that allow other colors to interact on the stack better, or compete with blue card selection with niche tutoring. It is sort of interesting how in pioneer green had become that dominant color because they just happened to have a lot of these cards that were printed to mimic blue in eternal formats.

  7. #22007

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Apologies for the late response, but...
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I guess you've never lost to Ensnaring Bridge locking the board down while the Oko player makes a bunch of 3/3 elks, then on their last turn of the game turns the Bridge into a 3/3 Elk and swings for lethal? It's actually a primary win condition for the deck.
    The deck was perfectly capable of locking the board down with Ensnaring Bridge and then killing the opponent later on before Oko.

    Urza is literally just another value card amongst other value cards. I predict Oko getting banned because it has happened in multiple other formats already.
    No, Oko is the value card. Urza might just be a value card it not for the fact that with him you can go infinite. Granted, you could do that before with Time Sieve, but Time Sieve could only be used for that purpose, whereas Urza will ramp you and give you giant creatures and, once going infinite, the ability to cast every single spell in your deck for free to make sure your opponent doesn't have the ability to do anything to stop you.

    The deck was a real force before Oko (or Emry) got printed, and Urza was the card that made the deck a thing to begin with. I don't see how someone can plausibly say that Urza is "just another value card" whereas Oko is supposed to be more than that.

    Burn is popular because of the Tron resurgence and the banning of Faithless Looting. It occupies the territory that Phoenix decks were claiming as an aggressive red deck that can beat the big mana decks. Time will tell whether this continues, which is all I meant.
    But that's not what you said at all. You said "Burn (it will only take a little time before this is unplayable)," That's not a "time will tell" statement, that's a hard and definite statement that Burn will be unplayable.

    Incidentally, Burn just got two slots at the last Modern GP, proof positive that Oko is hardly pushing it out.

    I didn't, I completely missed it. My experience so far has been with Karn tGC + Lattice making everything an artifact, which allowed Oko to turn it into an Elk. I forgot that it only targets creatures/artifacts in the text.
    Well, then your apparent argument for Oko pushing out Urzatron is moot. In fact, Urzatron seems like like it has a positive matchup against Urza/Oko, at least in theory (it's harder for me to comment on in practice, as I've only played the matchup once--Urzatron won, though). Certainly, Oko is quite unimpressive against Tron. And in terms of practical results, Tron is doing fine.

    Popularity is one thing, competitiveness is another. UWx decks were at least passably competitive, now the Oko/Urza deck will push them into solidly t3 or lower territory.
    Even if they no longer qualify as 'passably competitive', decks rise and fall all the time. A deck can't be said to be a problem just because some decks are no longer as good--one has to connect it directly to the new deck and it has to be an abnormal number of decks no longer being a part of the format. At the time UW decks were doing better, Death's Shadow was practically nonexistent. Now Death's Shadow is back in a big way.

    I could buy that if the deck wasn't already twin-like in its nature. It is an incredible mid-range deck alongside being a broken artifact deck. You fight one half, lose to the other. I'm not arguing for a ban of Oko, I'm saying it will be watched closely to see if the trend continues. Krark-Clan Ironworks was *never* a highly represented deck in Modern, but that got banned. Say what you want about 'high skill threshold' or 'unique interactions that scared people away from the deck', but the final say came from WOTC when they banned KCI.
    Oh, sure, Wizards of the Coast can do whatever they want in terms of banning. I won't venture to try to predict what they will do. My objection is the objectively inaccurate claims you were making, like Burn and Tron being pushed out despite the fact they're among the best decks in the format, now and back when you made the comment.

  8. #22008
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Fair statements. I was obviously wrong on several points. Overreaction fail, lol.
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  9. #22009
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The ongoing bannings for pioneer continue with Once Upon a Time, Field of the Dead and Smuggler's Copter. Oko is surprisingly still standing tall.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    You sir are a ninja of fine quality.

  10. #22010
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    The ongoing bannings for pioneer continue with Once Upon a Time, Field of the Dead and Smuggler's Copter. Oko is surprisingly still standing tall.
    Oko doesn't seem to be "dominating" Pioneer, plus, they still need something to sell Eldraine. OUaT was in all sorts of decks, where Oko forces one into GU, which isn't a strong color combination in Pioneer (at the moment). I think we can be almost assured that the culling in Pioneer is far from over though. Oko might well be axed if it puts up strong results through December. Dropping that axe at the beginning of January, leading up to the January 30th GP and new Theros set (which comes out the 24th) builds some hype for a "fresh meta" and then will strongly drive new sales. Seems likely to me.

    We should probably be keeping an eye on when the next Legacy GP gets scheduled for, if Oko gets the axe, it will likely be then.


    Seattle seems like a place they might do Legacy, or Providence, but then again, Las Vegas will likely be a multi-GP event too, which might include Legacy (but might be Standard, Pioneer, Modern). But it seems like Oko is probably safe in Legacy until at least June, but more probably August. Actually, I kind of hope for 0 Legacy GPs so they'll leave the format alone, but we'll have to see.
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  11. #22011

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    More than 1600 players in Bologna, I was there.
    7 Oko for the two finalists.
    2x Veil of summer MD for the winner (Green Miracles)...

  12. #22012

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    The ongoing bannings for pioneer continue with Once Upon a Time, Field of the Dead and Smuggler's Copter. Oko is surprisingly still standing tall.
    It's 1-v-1 commander all over again.

  13. #22013

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    The ongoing bannings for pioneer continue with Once Upon a Time, Field of the Dead and Smuggler's Copter. Oko is surprisingly still standing tall.
    It's now Oko's turn to take over the format. I suspect Oko and Nexus get banned next. After that, I think the format could stabilize.

  14. #22014
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    TO be fair to Pioneer, the format was created without a banlist basically so this could happen. I think they are being a bit too aggressive by banning multiple things at a time preemptively, but they said form the start that they would ban aggressively so it's not lie anyone has really been surprised by any of these bans
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    Top quality german restraint there.

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