View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #21181
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Yea, I hear this all the time. Here's the simple answer:

    If your using it in food chain your playing to loose, there are better options.

    If your using it as a 2 of in Goblins (The place for it) your never stacking more than a few cards, because your not playing to drag out a game, your just reloading.

    Cards safe. At this point it's going to do nothing.
    Why wouldn't you stack every creature in your deck on top of your lands just in case the game turns to a slog? The only way to shuffle the deck is Matron but you'd rather chain all your Ringleaders first.
    If it does nothing, the safe thing to do is to leave it banned to not potentially sabotage tournaments.

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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by jolssoni View Post
    Why wouldn't you stack every creature in your deck on top of your lands just in case the game turns to a slog?
    Because then you never draw a land again, you never draw your sideboard cards and you limit your options against unforeseen reactions.

    Remember that the original (and continuing but now not as effective) plan of Goblins is to control your opponents Lands while you attack them with creatures. Sure, you can ignore that plan and try to blunt force with creatures, but then you will just lose to a pair of TNN, a Batterskull or some other unforeseen piece of shit that exists now.

    But hey, don't take my word for it, ask Steven. (saltmine) He swore to me I was wrong when I said don't play more than 2 because it is not what you want to be doing all the time in Goblins when he was aloud to use them in an unsanctioned event. (he was the only person playing a banned card, no one gave a fuck because they had SnT and shit, so wow, a goblin, go for it) He ended up agreeing with me after.

    This card, it's like the people who where saying Burn and Delver was going to be unstoppable with Vise. I laughed then, I'll laugh now. This goblin will achieve nothing, him being banned is a joke.

    Remember when everyone claimed Worldgorger was going to create never ending rounds? Yea. Why don't we all admit we fucking suck at prophesies when it comes to the doom these things will cause.
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  3. #21183

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by jolssoni View Post
    I too want what few Legacy GPs and Opens remain to go additional 10 minutes to time every round.
    Yeah, I have to agree with Dice on this one, I think recruiter would do stone cold nothing.

    They've never actually impacted round length with a ban, they just use it as an excuse to ban playstyles they don't like/aren't popular.

  4. #21184
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I remember people would complain that those could only add more non interesting games. I don't think I've played against either card even once. Vise is so laughable I forgot that it was banned at all. One guy played a sweet dragon deck in the area for a bit though. It gave someone a reason to entomb for something other than Griselbrand for a couple weeks until people realized Griselbrand is just better
    Someone played mountain->vise against me on turn 1 the other day. I forced it. Turned out they were playing UR stasis. I beat them in two games with Aetherworks Marvel. But yeah Vise had to languish on the ban list for years

  5. #21185

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    Yeah, I have to agree with Dice on this one, I think recruiter would do stone cold nothing.

    They've never actually impacted round length with a ban, they just use it as an excuse to ban playstyles they don't like/aren't popular.
    I can imagine that recruiter would be a pain to play against, not for power, but in terms of slow-playing (hunting for 30 goblins to stack the deck could take a while, methinks).

    Memory jar would probably be broken though. Belcher can generate insane mana with just 4-5 cards, and giving them a wheel effect seems very good


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  6. #21186
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by jolssoni View Post
    The screenshot was confirmed Photoshopped, https://old.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/co...a_did/ee8ilsn/
    It would make sense to not unban SFM before they get the next Cashgrab Masters ready.

    Concerning Caw Blade, why? Squadron Hawk is just a bad card. The board presence is 100% irrelevant until you get a sword, swords are either too slow against all the other degenerate shit that remains after KCI gets the axe or too easily answered via K-Command, Abrade, discarding the equipment or just removing the creature you're equipping to, effectively skipping your turn. Terminus into JaceTeferi beats creatures of all shapes and sizes.

    I think the best SFM shell would be a value CoCo pile or maybe Death and Taxes would finally have enough stuff they need in Modern despite lacking all the Legacy goodies.
    I just meant the strategy of Jace + SFM; there are obviously better cards to include instead of Squadron Hawk. At a minimum it would be Snapcaster Mage instead.

    @noctalar: why do you feel that Memory Jar will never get unbanned? Is it just painful memories or is there a combo with it that is better than Entomb > Exhume > draw 7 cards?
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  7. #21187
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by schweinefettmann View Post
    I can imagine that recruiter would be a pain to play against, not for power, but in terms of slow-playing (hunting for 30 goblins to stack the deck could take a while, methinks).

    Memory jar would probably be broken though. Belcher can generate insane mana with just 4-5 cards, and giving them a wheel effect seems very good


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    Belcher already has Reforge the Soul available, and doesn't play it. The 3RR is actually really easy for them to achieve. The issue is that they are usually playing Burning Wish and then popping their LED for mana in response, not caring if they discard their hand because they only want EtW at that point anyways. Most of their broken t1 wins are because of LED, which doesn't help you cast Memory Jar. Wins come from playing Belcher, then cracking LED to activate. I don't see them getting to 5 mana without LED consistently enough to make Memory Jar worth playing (or Reforge the Soul for that matter, it's the same thing.)
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  8. #21188
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    If Jar was available I would use it in Welder Stax. Sacing a Land to draw 7, finding more lock pieces? Oh God please.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spam View Post
    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
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  9. #21189
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    If Jar was available I would use it in Welder Stax. Sacing a Land to draw 7, finding more lock pieces? Oh God please.
    We broke the format Bois.
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    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
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    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  10. #21190

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Are you guys seriously talking about unbanning Mindtwist?

  11. #21191

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    ...
    @noctalar: why do you feel that Memory Jar will never get unbanned? Is it just painful memories or is there a combo with it that is better than Entomb > Exhume > draw 7 cards?
    You can't exhume artifacts. (Shallow Grave + Magus of the Jar or Griselbrand does work.)

    There are a couple of things that you can do with jar that you can't do with other stuff, I'm not sure how marginal they are. I'm not sure how strong it ends up in practice, but it would be a fun thing to fetch with Transmute Artifact or Whir of Invention in affinity.

  12. #21192

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    You can't exhume artifacts. (Shallow Grave + Magus of the Jar or Griselbrand does work.)
    I'm pretty sure Griselbrand is exactly what was being referred to here, not Jar...
    Honestly I think Griselbrand is probably the most broken or abusable draw 7 ever printed, it doesn't even feel fair to Jar to compare.

    For what it's worth, Jar wrecks your opponent's hand as well, casting more doubt in the fact that they might have answers to whatever you're doing (Interestingly, an opponent's Brainstorm can hide a Force or something on top to draw into )...but it still feels so hard to compare anything to Griselbrand, it lets you draw a ton of cards and win the game at the same time. As has been mentioned in the past, the fact that Griz is unbanned but Bargain is not is kind of silly, in a lot of ways. Being a creature is a huge boon over Bargain in my opinion, it makes it way more abusable even though it costs 2 more mana.

  13. #21193

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Are you guys seriously talking about unbanning Mindtwist?
    Yes...why not?
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    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

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    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  14. #21194
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by niv View Post
    I'm pretty sure Griselbrand is exactly what was being referred to here, not Jar...
    Yes, I thought that was obvious. I guess not.

    Honestly I think Griselbrand is probably the most broken or abusable draw 7 ever printed, it doesn't even feel fair to Jar to compare.
    You're not wrong.

    For what it's worth, Jar wrecks your opponent's hand as well, casting more doubt in the fact that they might have answers to whatever you're doing (Interestingly, an opponent's Brainstorm can hide a Force or something on top to draw into )...but it still feels so hard to compare anything to Griselbrand, it lets you draw a ton of cards and win the game at the same time. As has been mentioned in the past, the fact that Griz is unbanned but Bargain is not is kind of silly, in a lot of ways. Being a creature is a huge boon over Bargain in my opinion, it makes it way more abusable even though it costs 2 more mana.
    While jar may dump opponent's hand it also refills it. The hate you were trying to dodge would have been played in response to jar (Force of Will, Stifle) so if they can't answer it you are giving them 7 more looks at answering the next step in your combo. I've played a healthy amount of Ruby Storm and it's the same quandary with Reforge the Soul. They either force the Reforge or get 7 more looks at forcing your next business spell.
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  15. #21195

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I'm not sure everyone read Jar before posting - it makes you both set aside your current hand, draw seven, then discard the seven and get the original hand back at end of turn. It temporarily wheels your opponent, they don't keep the seven afterward.

  16. #21196

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylert View Post
    Maybe someone remembers why it was banned in first place?
    Memory Jar is MUCH better than Reforge the Soul. Artifacts can be cheated into play. Also, opponent discards the 7 new cards at the end of your turn, before he untaps, so he cannot use the extra cards as easily as you can. It's less symmetrical than it looks.

    Jar was originally banned because people could play 4 Tinkers to cheat it into play and get turn 1 Goldfishes with Megrim (in Standard or Extended). But that's because Standard thought it was OK to let people play 4-of cards like Tinker, Mox Diamond, Dark Ritual, Vampiric Tutor, Grim Monolith, Lotus Petal, Yawgmoth's Will, Sol Lands.... In Extended players also had access to 4 Necropotence, 4 Mana Vault, 4 Lion's Eye Diamond, and 4 Demonic Consultation... This fast mana and tutor powerhouse is what made the 5cmc card so dangerous.

    Over time (especially with the Storm mechanic being printed), more of the enablers hit the B/R list: Tinker, Necropotence, Vampiric Tutor, Mana Vault, Demonic Consultation, Yawgmoth's Will, Windfall, Mystical Tutor, etc..

    The Storm mechanic made the Jar+Megrim combo obsolete (Megrim is a bad card). Mind's Desire / Tendrils was a better way to win. At that point Jar still saw play in Vintage Storm as a Tinker-able draw 7 so it needed to stay restricted. Jar's probably one of those cards that was autobanned at the birth of Legacy because it was restricted in Vintage and banned in old Extended. Nowadays Jar isn't as scary without the insane mana acceleration and tutoring that was available back then. This Legacy format is underpowered compared to old Extended and even old Standard. :p

    Still, Jar's a powerful effect for any combo deck, maybe the most broken high CMC card on the list, especially if you can cheat it into play or run a lot of rituals. I could see Belcher/Spanish Inquisition running 4 maindeck and wind up with a higher turn 1 goldfish rate. Welder/Metalworker decks could abuse it for free cards. The question is if it would actually improve TES, or if Ad Nauseam is just a better draw engine at the same cost (without filling opponent's hand with countermagic).
    Last edited by FTW; 01-18-2019 at 12:10 PM.

  17. #21197

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Yes, I thought that was obvious. I guess not.



    You're not wrong.



    While jar may dump opponent's hand it also refills it. The hate you were trying to dodge would have been played in response to jar (Force of Will, Stifle) so if they can't answer it you are giving them 7 more looks at answering the next step in your combo. I've played a healthy amount of Ruby Storm and it's the same quandary with Reforge the Soul. They either force the Reforge or get 7 more looks at forcing your next business spell.
    Im proposing you this scenario.

    Stax dumps its hand (image tangle wires added aswell) and then jar.
    You basicly gave staxx a "free" dig trough time, and the opponent likely gets nothing.

    As long as you are playing a big staxx (think about the big eldrazi shell) with some added trini/wires, you get to draw 7 into cast whatever you get with no drawback, given how hard you can ramp this can happen likely at turn 3/4.
    You could also try to run all the mana + jar and some disruption, in this case if jar lands you are likely to have ~15 mana and 7 cards in hand at turn 3 while playing 4 trini and 4 cotv and 4 tangle, you get the point
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  18. #21198
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Jar is banned because it was an apt combo enabler on the back of fast mana. While the card that caused the most issues with it is still banned (Academy) the card itself would still be useful with the mana we have now. LED and Jar would be something, but no, it's not what it was.

    But a lot of these cards are here thanks to past sins. Mind twist is on the list as a hold over from Legacys creation, where a restricted card in type 1 was banned in 1.5. Twist, when used with Jewlery caused no small amount of hell, letting you destroy the hand of one's opponent on the first turn with ease. But that option is not available now and I feel it's unreasonable to argue it would do any great damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctalor View Post
    Im proposing you this scenario.

    Stax dumps its hand (image tangle wires added aswell) and then jar.
    You basicly gave staxx a "free" dig trough time, and the opponent likely gets nothing.
    I'll be in my bunk.
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    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
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  19. #21199
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Jar is a busted card that probably doesn't need to be unbanned.

    But Griselbrand is just as busted in every way and should be banned if Jar is the standard.

  20. #21200

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    While the card that caused the most issues with it is still banned (Academy)
    Not true. Academy hit the B/R list before Jar was printed.

    Tolarian Academy was banned after Urza's Saga. The Academy Deck quickly broke Standard and Extended: cheap mana rocks, Mind Over Matter, and the insane draw power of Windfall, Time Spiral, Scroll Rack and Stroke of Genius. It was restricted in Vintage at the same time, obviously busted with Moxen.

    Memory Jar was printed a few months later in Urza's Legacy, banned mid-season. Randy Buehler broke Extended with this Jar-Megrim deck that did not use Tolarian Academy at all:
    https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Extended_Broken_Jar_deck

    A similar deck was possible in Standard, so the card hit B/R in all formats. Jar just needed enough fast mana to abuse the cards, tutors, and the single Megrim to kill. It was also weird time in Magic history where Lion's Eye Diamond was in limbo between the Sixth Edition rules change and its errata, so it was a quasi-Black Lotus for a few months. LED + Jar was absolutely a thing.

    The Broken Jar list wasn't even optimal. Necropotence could be played as a 4-of, powered out turn 1 by Dark Ritual or Lion's-Eye-Lotus (pre-errata).

    Sphere effects (Defense Grid) also break the symmetry, so no pesky FoWs ruining your day.

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