View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #21241

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    When Show and Tell is legal but Earthcraft is still banned, I have to assume that there are no consistent criteria for banning cards, but rather that WotC aims to minimize change. Theyíre also inconsistent in minimizing change, however, since Land Tax is legal (a change I like, since Iím having a great time with a Land Tax deck). Itís as if, for some reason, both Shoreline Ranger and Chartooth Cougar had gotten banned a decade ago, and then WotC later remembered to unban only one of them. There are a surprising number of inconsistencies in the banned list that have stood the test of years.

  2. #21242

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by BirdsOfParadise View Post
    When Show and Tell is legal but Earthcraft is still banned, I have to assume that there are no consistent criteria for banning cards, but rather that WotC aims to minimize change. Theyíre also inconsistent in minimizing change, however, since Land Tax is legal (a change I like, since Iím having a great time with a Land Tax deck). Itís as if, for some reason, both Shoreline Ranger and Chartooth Cougar had gotten banned a decade ago, and then WotC later remembered to unban only one of them. There are a surprising number of inconsistencies in the banned list that have stood the test of years.
    I just thought of something regarding this - if wotc did a drastic adjustment of the banlist, itíd shake up the meta, right? Then, the meta would settle, and legacy might start getting stale.

    The playable cardpool in legacy moves glacially as it is, so maybe wotc just wants to leave some unbannables for when they feel like there isnít going to be any meaningful changes to the cardpool for a long time (or some conspiracy along those lines).


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  3. #21243
    Meh.
    whienot's Avatar
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I think you're giving WotC too much credit. Eternal magic is not a topic that breaches their frontal lobes regularly.

    They've long needed to let Legacy/Vintage B&R go and be managed by people that give a damn.
    Tusk up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Just fucking ban the 600 pound gorilla and be done with it. FFS

  4. #21244
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    Aaron Forsythe (@mtgaaron) Tweeted:
    "It's one of the "pillars of the format" that makes it unique and players tolerate/love. It's like Brainstorm in Legacy. Every saturation metric we could ever invent would point to it being banned, but people love it. Transgressive stuff needs a place to live."

    https://twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/...188588544?s=17
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  5. #21245

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by schweinefettmann View Post
    The playable cardpool in legacy moves glacially as it is, so maybe wotc just wants to leave some unbannables for when they feel like there isnít going to be any meaningful changes to the cardpool for a long time (or some conspiracy along those lines).
    I think it's actually the opposite - they know full well those cards wouldn't do anything, but sometimes they slip up and print something like Dig Through Time and need to ban it, and being able to say, "well, you can't play with this new toy we just printed, BUT, here's Goblin Recruiter/Earthcraft back!" softens the blow a bit.

    It doesn't matter if those cards are in the format now, so there's not really a cost to having them on the list, and it gives them some nice options when their hand is forced.

  6. #21246
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    I think it's actually the opposite - they know full well those cards wouldn't do anything, but sometimes they slip up and print something like Dig Through Time and need to ban it, and being able to say, "well, you can't play with this new toy we just printed, BUT, here's Goblin Recruiter/Earthcraft back!" softens the blow a bit.

    It doesn't matter if those cards are in the format now, so there's not really a cost to having them on the list, and it gives them some nice options when their hand is forced.
    I actually think this is correct, from what I've read from WOTC. They are holding a couple safe cards in reserve for their next royal fuckup.
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  7. #21247
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I actually think this is correct, from what I've read from WOTC. They are holding a couple safe cards in reserve for their next royal fuckup.
    I was willing to believe this until they had Deathrite Shaman and Gitaxian Probe shot and thrown out of a plane without giving us anything. Now I find it more likely that they think Earthcraft is too strong. They even printed two "not Earthcrafts" in recent memory (Cryptolith Rite and Song of Freyalise)

  8. #21248

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by whienot View Post
    I think you're giving WotC too much credit. Eternal magic is not a topic that breaches their frontal lobes regularly.

    They've long needed to let Legacy/Vintage B&R go and be managed by people that give a damn.
    Hahaha players are way too up their own butts for that too work. Look at this thread as an example.
    And getting people to try and follow some "official council" seems like pissing in the wind. The egos are too big.

  9. #21249

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by itslarryyo View Post
    Hahaha players are way too up their own butts for that too work. Look at this thread as an example.
    And getting people to try and follow some "official council" seems like pissing in the wind. The egos are too big.
    I hate to admit it, but I can't help but agree with this. I don't necessarily think that a group managing the format outside of wizards is a bad thing, but I can't help but think there's a good chance it may not go great.

    Regardless, I've always been a fan of Wizard's 'hands-off' approach with eternal formats...but I sure wish they had the same approach when it comes to cards in supplemental sets.

  10. #21250
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I'm not sure if it's a matter of big egos as much as it is a matter of strong opinions, but maybe these things overlap. Anyway, I think it would be hard to have a leadership emerge spontaneously from a group of people scattered over the world whichever the group may be. But, if some well known players agreed to form a new banlist and started streaming events, that might work. On the other hand, I wouldn't mind seeing several small communities test different variations of the ban list, as they prefer, and learning from what others are doing. Edit: if some changes would turn out to be fruitful, these might spread to other communities, and this might both change the attitude of players in general and Wizards' perception of requested changes from the community, aswell as reducing the risk for them in making changes.

  11. #21251

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Watersaw View Post
    I was willing to believe this until they had Deathrite Shaman and Gitaxian Probe shot and thrown out of a plane without giving us anything.
    As I've argued before, these bans were about public perception, rather than actual brokenness. In this case, the boon to the playerbase was assumed to be the banning itself, so no compensation was needed - if the thing you wanted was Probe gone, for whatever personal vendetta you had against the card, then there's no other compensation required, because you got what you wanted.

    If Wizards thinks that people will be happy with the ban, they won't try to offset it with an unban.

  12. #21252
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    As I've argued before, these bans were about public perception, rather than actual brokenness. In this case, the boon to the playerbase was assumed to be the banning itself, so no compensation was needed - if the thing you wanted was Probe gone, for whatever personal vendetta you had against the card, then there's no other compensation required, because you got what you wanted.

    If Wizards thinks that people will be happy with the ban, they won't try to offset it with an unban.
    I agree with this, I remember Top's banning being quite the contentious occurrence. Most were in favor of the ban but a lot of people had serious money invested in Miracles (and didn't think they could play the deck without Top, ha, jokes on them...) They seemed to feel the need to 'throw us a bone', which I think was Worldgorger Dragon at the time.
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  13. #21253

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    As I've argued before, these bans were about public perception, rather than actual brokenness. In this case, the boon to the playerbase was assumed to be the banning itself, so no compensation was needed - if the thing you wanted was Probe gone, for whatever personal vendetta you had against the card, then there's no other compensation required, because you got what you wanted.

    If Wizards thinks that people will be happy with the ban, they won't try to offset it with an unban.
    Good Post. What were the last couple they softened?
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  14. #21254

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by kinda View Post
    Good Post. What were the last couple they softened?
    Just looking at the timeline of a few recent ones (I can't really speak for the time before I played regularly, because I wouldn't have a good sense of the community sentiment):

    Modern, 2014: Ban DRS; Unban Bitterblossom and Wild Nacatl
    Modern, 2015: Ban DTT, Treasure Cruise, and Birthing Pod; unban Golgari Grave Troll
    Legacy, 2015: Ban Treasure Cruise; unban Worldgorger Dragon
    Vintage, 2015: Restrict Treasure Cruise; Unrestrict Gifts Ungiven
    Legacy, 2015: Ban DTT; unban Black Vise
    Vintage, 2015: Restrict Chalice of the Void and DTT; unrestrict Thirst for knowledge
    Modern, 2016: Ban Eye of Ugin, unban Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek (this is surprising to me because at the time it was completely obvious that Eye needed to go, the deck was bananas)
    Vintage: Restrict Thorn of Amythyst and Monastery Mentor; unrestrict Yawgmoth's Bargain

    Examples of popular Bans (i.e., WotC felt no compensation was necessary):
    Modern, 2013: Ban Second Sunrise
    Modern, 2016: Ban Splinter Twin and Summer Bloom
    Pauper, 2016: Ban Peregrine Drake Edited, thanks Zombie
    Modern, 2017: Ban Gitaxian Probe and Gorgari Grave Troll
    Legacy, 2017: Ban Sensei's Divining Top
    Legacy, 2018: Ban Deathrite Shaman and Gitaxian Probe
    Modern, 2019: Ban Krark Clan Ironworks

    It's not a 100% guaranteed tactic, but I think it does play meaningfully into their decision schema.

    Plus, as others have pointed out, a lot of the banlist management has to do with playerbase perception, and unbanning a card just to reban it later looks more foolish than just leaving it on, and the formats are mostly fine even with some dubious inclusions/exclusions.
    Last edited by taconaut; 01-28-2019 at 08:55 AM.

  15. #21255
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Modern, 2016: Ban Peregrine Drake
    Wrong format.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  16. #21256
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    So it looks like they unbanned cards to make up for the delve shitstains. This sets a soft precedent that they hold safe cards on the banlist to be released for the next fuckup.
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  17. #21257
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    As I've argued before, these bans were about public perception, rather than actual brokenness. In this case, the boon to the playerbase was assumed to be the banning itself, so no compensation was needed - if the thing you wanted was Probe gone, for whatever personal vendetta you had against the card, then there's no other compensation required, because you got what you wanted.

    If Wizards thinks that people will be happy with the ban, they won't try to offset it with an unban.
    It's also notable that Probe was most used in Combo and DRS was most used in "Fair"; hitting both sides slowed both sides down. Combo has to go off in the dark or with protection more often, while Fair decks have a harder time with 3 colors, and definitely shakey at 4 (and don't accelerate much) While it's weird to be in a world without DRS; the fact that I don't get probed T1 by every DTB is kinda neat. Neat enough that; while it's taken me 6 months to figure out what I'd do without DRS and care enough to build a deck; I'm actually kind of excited again.
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  18. #21258

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Don't ban Brainstorm.

    But please unban every single thing on the ban list thats not blue or an artifact.

    Ehh, nevermind. Just ban brainstorm already from all formats. Thanks to the existance of fetchlands, Brainstorm is for all intents and purposes is an Ancestral Recall.

  19. #21259
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clark Kant View Post
    Just ban brainstorm already from all formats. Thanks to the existance of fetchlands, Brainstorm is for all intents and purposes is an Ancestral Recall.
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  20. #21260

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I actually think this is correct, from what I've read from WOTC. They are holding a couple safe cards in reserve for their next royal fuckup.
    Am I the only one who actually wants them to fuck up on a semi-regular basis? That means they are actually printing new cards with a chance to disrupt the eternal formats.

    IMO it is much more interesting for the format when they print high power-level cards that can *gasp* disrupt the meta.

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