View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #21281
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylert View Post
    D&T was there before Terminus and it has never been a top dog before...
    They also didn’t have Recruiter back then. The key card at work is Snapcaster Mage turning every spot removal into a mini-wrath (this happened Sep. 2011 vs Terminus in 2012). People like to focus on Terminus, but the Plow recursion is the real killer of Zoo/Maverick/Goyf. On the non-white side you have 1-2 mana kill spells, the same SCM recursion, and also 1/1 cantrip flying removal (Strix).

    These obstacles are good enough by themselves to defeat an aggro deck (particularly if SCM also trades in combat), but more importantly they buy time on turns 1-3 such that the aggro deck is going to get locked out. After SCM/kill spell does its damage, there is little functional difference between Strix and Terminus - both should pretty much kill you as they allow safe resolution of JTMS vs hellbent topdecking.

    It shouldn’t come as much of a surprise that the value-Vial dude plan is far better positioned to combat Strix and Terminus than tap out and jam no-value, dies top StP/Snap-StP dude plan. Take Terminus out of the format and UW is still going to have all the time in the world with SCM/Plow to build up to a Supreme Verdict vs the latter dude plan; but that wrath will never be castable vs DnT specifically. It wouldn’t take DnT that long to figure out a way to beat SCM/kill spell by itself (UW), nor would it be too hard to find cards to beat SCM/kill spell + Strix since that style of magic has exactly one best presentation - and Grixis can’t touch resolved, not-blue enchantments.

    So you don’t care about UW, Grixis Jammy Jams is solveable, you already smash Delver, you troll decks like SnS & Depths & Reanimator, and have insta-win bears [and their tutors] against other combo. Other than Elves! there isn’t much left over for DnT to care about, so why play any other creature deck?

  2. #21282
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylert View Post
    One point for you about CA in D&T :) Maybe it's now just missing the fetch + brainstorm Library manipulation that the blue shell offers :)

    About terminus, isn't it specifically this card that has made other creature decks tier 3?
    I don't think that goblins for example really feared wraths before terminus. Remember that terminus is a one mana wrath that denies death triggers and graveyard manipulations... this is way powerfull than for example a 4 mana color intensive supreme verdict or a 4 mana counterable wrath of god :)

    D&T was there before Terminus and it has never been a top dog before...
    Goblins loves terminus. Reload the library for matron and ringleader.
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  3. #21283
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Touch Terminus and Vial has to get banned immediately. You don’t screw around with unchecked free mana in legacy, that’s even more concerning than Fetchlands.
    Are you seriously suggesting that Miracles is what's keeping D&T from being a larger portion of the meta? When D&T was at its zenith, it was tied for when Jund was at its zenith. While the format was annoying, it was no more saturated with a single deck arch than other times. We also saw a wave of Elves crash in and start munching their mono-colored brethren. The Elf wave will cycle the format, as it has.

    While you won't believe me; Dead-Guy Ale does top the occasional large-tournament and no one plays that deck. It has better combo game than D&T (except S&T for obvious reasons), has very stable mana, and is very good against D&T; primarily on the back of ZP. What's more, DGA can eats Elves breakfast between their Discard and ZPs. This isn't to say DGA is better at everything; just that if D&T were big, Elves would be big; and DGA can fit right in there (especially if Miracles is gone.)

    Were D&T big again, we'd see the main-decked Forked Bolts come back in force, the mained Deluges, etc. and people would eventually get tired of being 2-for-1'd or worse all the time; and move to something else or take a short break while the meta evolves

    UW Stoneblade is still a thing too. Even if we grant it has a bad game against D&T (couldn't tell you) it has a *way* better combo game (Hatebears + counters) than D&T (just hatebears)

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  4. #21284
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Jund, Blade, DGA: all worse versions of Czech/Grixis Jammy Jams. Same strategy of value, hand disruption (counters if Blade), and kill spells...but at the end of the day, the same deck with worse tools. More than being having worse tools, they also are never going to be able to do anything resulting in a generally winning matchup vs Hymn/Kcomm/SCM (and Strix, and the cantrip consistency and the access to FoW and the SB REBs in case they too were trying to run JTMS).

    When these decks tap out and jam, they don’t refire Hymn into draw step discard your draw, Snap-repeat. The sheer amount of hand destruction from Grixis is something they can’t match. Moreover, 1-for-1 discard (from not-combo) is beyond useless vs Grixis; unless you hit exactly a PW or enchantment, you’re merely delaying resources, not denying.

    The issue would be that UW, the wrath archetype, would be pushed out of competitive tier by a creature deck. End result: more pilots on Hymn spamming Grixis. If you’d like to test this go play UW miracles and only use Verdict and play vs DnT. That matchup being an auto-loss means you’re not making it to top tables anymore, unless you luck out and dodge it all day. Have to keep in mind that DnT would both be better situated and see way more play with Terminus gone, so dodging would be less realistic.

    Most decks that want Terminus gone are crappy Grixis, who also have a poor matchup vs Grixis. Banning Terminus would simply reinforce this diversity-killing fact. DnT is a different fundamental strategy than Grixis, and it can very easily be changed to specifically combat that deck when it can’t feel any meaningful pressure from UW.
    Last edited by Fox; 02-05-2019 at 07:38 PM.

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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Guys, seriously, D&T is like the Yankees of Legacy. Even if it's not dominant (and it often is), everybody who's a D&T fan loves it and everybody who isn't hates (on?) it.
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Legacy has many many issues, a competent DnT pilot is not one of them.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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    Do not make fun of lands masters, they've spent many years mastering the punishing fire technique in the secret loam monastery. Do not mistake them with the miracles masters, eternal rivals, they won't like it.
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  7. #21287
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Legacy has many many issues, a competent DnT pilot is not one of them.
    Indeed.

    Besides, how healthy a format do we have if White Weenie is a dangerous contender?

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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    The issue would be that UW, the wrath archetype, would be pushed out of competitive tier by a creature deck. End result: more pilots on Hymn spamming Grixis.
    First, you've changed your argument from "UW would go away" to "Grixis would take over"; neither of which are true. UW would stick around in stoneblade; Grixis *does* have bad MUs. You may even see UW go back to Rip Helm control; shitting on the over-use of the grave at the moment.

    Second, you ignored the primary argument: If D&T does well, Elves does well shortly thereafter. Decks that do well against both of those will then do well (one example being DGA, though I'm not saying it would be a DTB.)

    _________
    Again, I could give an ass about Terminus at the moment; but your arguments don't hold any water. You like Terminus and hate D&T. That's fine. Presenting bad arguments like "UW wont even be COLROS anymore GUIS!" isn't a thing.

    NOTE: This is coming from someone who hates losing to D&T. I truly understand the animosity; but if we survived the D&T spam that was 3-4 years ago we can survive it again.

    Everybody wants to be a doomsayer and no one has been correct thus far.
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  9. #21289
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by tescrin View Post
    First, you've changed your argument from "UW would go away" to "Grixis would take over"; neither of which are true. UW would stick around in stoneblade; Grixis *does* have bad MUs. You may even see UW go back to Rip Helm control; shitting on the over-use of the grave at the moment.

    Second, you ignored the primary argument: If D&T does well, Elves does well shortly thereafter. Decks that do well against both of those will then do well (one example being DGA, though I'm not saying it would be a DTB.)

    _________
    Again, I could give an ass about Terminus at the moment; but your arguments don't hold any water. You like Terminus and hate D&T. That's fine. Presenting bad arguments like "UW wont even be COLROS anymore GUIS!" isn't a thing.

    NOTE: This is coming from someone who hates losing to D&T. I truly understand the animosity; but if we survived the D&T spam that was 3-4 years ago we can survive it again.

    Everybody wants to be a doomsayer and no one has been correct thus far.
    The easiest way to win at legacy is to play Fetchlands + Hymn or CB. Make CB worse vs the field, people move to Hymn. CB is mainly made worse b/c it‘s not realistic to cast a not-Terminus wrath vs DnT. Strict-UW [which is what is meant by UW] would cease to exist. The reason you can‘t cast Verdict vs DnT is primarily Vial (frees up mana for Port and WL and dumps Thalia into play).

    I don‘t hate DnT, and I don‘t love Terminus - I just realize that Terminus is the only thing that makes UW playable because you‘ll never make day 2 if you auto-lose to DnT; and DnT numbers would predictably rise as it would be the only dude deck against which miracles can‘t cast a wrath.

    DnT is already perfectly viable, and so is UW miracles. While I dislike any deck cheese‘ing wins off CB, it was either that or them cheese’ing wins off of Hymn/SCM/Kcomm. Terminus existing means that no matter how miserable Hymn and CB are, you don‘t only see just one of them over and over and over. If Verdict was the new wrath for miracles, you‘d see Delver beating them more routinely - this also reinforces a move towards Grixis “control“ and DnT.

    One last note: Blade is a worse version of Grixis. It wins less, it uses worse tools, and it has a poor matchup vs Grixis.

  10. #21290
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    Guys, seriously, D&T is like the Yankees of Legacy. Even if it's not dominant (and it often is), everybody who's a D&T fan loves it and everybody who isn't hates (on?) it.
    My only issue with D&T is that its a creature based deck and their creatures are so much more useful than anything green really has to offer. Green is the color that should be creature based, although I realize that D&T creatures have that little bit of flair that makes them white, it is still odd to me that green doesn't really have a mono green beats that could come anywhere near D&T.

    Personally, I hate playing against it because as a dark depths player it is easily my worst match-up. However, I am happy that it is in the format to keep decks in check.



    Also, if survival of the fittest's mana cost was GGG instead of 1G, would it be fair? That would decrease its ability to be splashed and it would still hold true as a green card. Green just has not been the same without it.
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  11. #21291
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Green seems to be the colour of "Brute" creatures and White the colour of more "Finesse" I guess would be the word.

    I get that's not a universal design aesthetic for the two colours, but it feels like the direction we have gone. Green makes mana and beats shit. So your unlikely to get a well rounded mono green deck because you lack the disruption needed to hold your own in Legacy.

    White on the other hand is a "Thinking" colour over greens "Force" so it gets that interaction. Right or wrong, I feel this is what's happening.
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  12. #21292
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Green seems to be the colour of "Brute" creatures and White the colour of more "Finesse" I guess would be the word.

    I get that's not a universal design aesthetic for the two colours, but it feels like the direction we have gone. Green makes mana and beats shit. So your unlikely to get a well rounded mono green deck because you lack the disruption needed to hold your own in Legacy.

    White on the other hand is a "Thinking" colour over greens "Force" so it gets that interaction. Right or wrong, I feel this is what's happening.
    I certainly agree with you. I guess I just wish that was not the way it is. It feels wrong. Maybe we need more super beefy beat down creatures in green that are just extremely limited in their ability to be splashed.

    Angry Monkey - G

    trample

    if at anytime a land you control could produce white, black, blue, or red mana, sacrifice angry monkey.
    or
    if you cast a spell that is any color other than green, sacrifice angry monkey.

    3/3

    Would this card be too good? nope and yet they would probably never print it. It would trade with a delver (oh boy dont get me started on that), it dies to common format removal (bolt, swords, and decay), and it gets blocked by like a t3 goyf and probably dies.

    how good would a mono green creature have to be to see play in legacy at 1, 2, and 3 CMC?
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  13. #21293
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The issue is that again, your looking at a straight beater. What's the most common straight beater in Legacy? Angler? A 1 drop 5/5? That's the bar I think.

    A green 1 drop 3/3 with conditions is just not fast enough anymore. It's just not. It would need some form of evasion or other secondary effect to be relevant. Even then it would just go into RUG Delver, not a Zoo deck. If the conditions stopped taht it would just see no play.

    It's why DnT is so beautiful. (even if I don't personally enjoy playing against it. Hey asshole, eat my Sulfur Elemental!) It's got the threats while being backed up by one sided disruption. It's a winning combo.

    The premium "Mono Green" deck is Elves. It's basicly a fast mana deck without equal in the format. If your looking at what Green is going to manage outside of "Big dumb fun" your eye will almost always drift back to fast mana. It's the other half of the colours identity and its the half that's more relevant in Legacy. I would look for less beaters and more creature combo enablers. That's where I feel green has the most room to grown.
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  14. #21294
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    a busted green creature for me would be something like

    G

    X/X where X is the number of forest lands you control. creature may fight with another creature when it enters. if it's "too good" then it would then only count towards basic forests.
    -rob

  15. #21295
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    A busted green creature:

    Mr. Fantastic Elf - GG
    Creature - Elf Mutant
    Reach
    When Mr. Fantastic enters the battlefield, draw a card
    1/1
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  16. #21296
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Green has creatures that can match up against the other threats of the format, what it lacks is the additional element so it doesn't lose to combo. I really feel that Dice Bix has an accurate picture of this. We have the dudes, that isn't the issue.

    Hooting Mandrils
    Glistener Elf
    Dungrove Elder
    Witchstalker
    Troll Ascetic
    Thrun, the Last Troll
    I am counted amongst legions of the unrighteous
    who dread not being immersed in pits of fire

  17. #21297
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I think something like this could help green, non-elves decks become more viable:

    Good Times Ranger
    Casting cost: G
    Card type: Creature - Cleric Wizard
    Tap: Exile target land card from a graveyard. Add one mana of any color.
    B, Tap: Exile target instant or sorcery card from a graveyard. Each opponent loses 2 life.
    G, Tap: Exile target creature card from a graveyard. You gain 2 life.
    P/T: 0/1
    Flavor text: I'm back.

    Edit: Matsu's version below is probably more reasonably balanced. But remember, Deathrite was never really a problem before it got played in non-green decks (grixis specifically), I guess green centered decks need some high power level to even only be relevant.

  18. #21298
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    I think something like this could help green, non-elves decks become more viable:

    Good Times Ranger
    Casting cost: G
    Card type: Creature - Cleric Wizard
    Tap: Exile target land card from a graveyard. Add one mana of any color.
    B, Tap: Exile target instant or sorcery card from a graveyard. Each opponent loses 2 life.
    G, Tap: Exile target creature card from a graveyard. You gain 2 life.
    P/T: 0/1
    Flavor text: I'm back.
    Too stronk i have balanced it more ;)

    Good Times Ranger
    Casting cost: G
    Card type: Creature - Cleric Wizard
    Tap: Exile target land card from a graveyard. Add G.
    B, Tap: Exile target instant or sorcery card from a graveyard. Each opponent loses 1 life.
    G, Tap: Exile target creature card from a graveyard. You gain 2 life.
    P/T: 0/1
    Flavor text: I'm back.

  19. #21299
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Green has creatures that can match up against the other threats of the format, what it lacks is the additional element so it doesn't lose to combo. I really feel that Dice Bix has an accurate picture of this. We have the dudes, that isn't the issue.

    Hooting Mandrils
    Glistener Elf
    Dungrove Elder
    Witchstalker
    Troll Ascetic
    Thrun, the Last Troll
    sure these cards see fringe play but they are really weak when compared to other creatures in the format. My thinking i that the best creatures should come from green. I still rather have a TNN than any of those you listed...and its not even blue. Glistener elf is actually good but only suitable for 1 deck.


    As for the recreation of DRS, it'll still get splashed and it'll cause problems. WOTC hasen't figured out how to restrict creatures to a color yet. Sure, on bigger creatrures they just add more colored symbols, but on lower CMC creatures it's not as effective. GG is probably the most anyone in legacy would splash. At GGG you start to become heavily influenced in your decks ability to produce it consistently. Maybe even 3 colored symbols isnt enough to force it into 1 color without text on the card that limits it.

    Mistercakes seems good but would still be splashable and create an even bigger problem because duals count as forests.

    Mr. Fantastic elf exists as elvish visionary an it only gets played in combo decks and is not a beater...
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    Also, if survival of the fittest's mana cost was GGG instead of 1G, would it be fair? That would decrease its ability to be splashed and it would still hold true as a green card. Green just has not been the same without it.
    Survival of the Fittest is fair right now. If they unbanned it I don't think it would do anything except maybe make another cool Tier 2 deck.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Green seems to be the colour of "Brute" creatures and White the colour of more "Finesse" I guess would be the word.
    "Utility?"

    Quote Originally Posted by apple713 View Post
    Mr. Fantastic elf exists as elvish visionary an it only gets played in combo decks and is not a beater...
    The reason he wrote it like he did is for the Reach, so that your Visionary can block Marit Lage and Delvers while you bounce it to get card advantage.

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