View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #20361

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    This is a pointless and jaring discussion as countless posts in this thread have outlined a hundred times, that this approach results into you having to ban 5-12 cards and even more over time.
    So?

  2. #20362
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    So?
    We already know how such things work out, respectively don't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  3. #20363
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    We already know how such things work out, respectively don't.
    So?
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatDeleuzeGuy View Post
    I want to play as close to possible a 100% reactive deck that also approached 0% variance in how it played. I want to play magic with as little variance as possible. Also had a foiled out miracles deck that was an investment of about 6 grand that is now nearly worthless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    My original post did that.

    I'd love to have a battle of wits with you but I see you lack the necessary equipment.

    Good day.

  4. #20364

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    We already know how such things work out, respectively don't.
    For example:

  5. #20365
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    For example:
    Vintage Apocalypse? Just look at the players feedback, crashing player numbers, format "health", sellouts, 6y long reign of Workshops, etc.

    The Format was repeatingly chopping the head of the cantrip core for years like in Legacy, but when they decided to restrict the whole blue core, the format as such took a huge hit in general as they also removed the ability of decks to fight back the onesided games of Lodestone Golem + Chalice. Blue decks only started to become viable again with the release of Dack and Co.

    What I am trying to say is that you have several options:

    - keep chopping the hydras head just like WotC does since forever in Legacy (TC, SDT, DTT, DRS, etc.) and just accept that Fetches/BS/Ponder are there to remain the best core period,
    - ban Brainstorm and watch how the blue decks streamline even more without significantly improving the situation for other cores because Ponder/Preordain/FoW are still better than Sylan Library/Nissas Oath,
    - hammer the whole bunch of blue cantrips from Brainstorm over Ponder to Preordain in order to leave Legacy with Modern powerlevel of cantrips and alienate most of the playerbase like it happened in vintage and deal with the fitting description of Legacy as "Modern with ABU Duals and FoW"
    (- ban fetchlands and unban all the cards which are just banned because free shuffle/yardfill effects broke them, leaving Brainstorm & Co suddenly as very fair cards)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  6. #20366

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Vintage Apocalypse? Just look at the players feedback, crashing player numbers, format "health", sellouts, 6y long reign of Workshops, etc.
    This is a pointless and jaring discussion as countless posts in this thread have outlined a hundred times, that this approach results into you having to ban 5-12 cards and even more over time.
    Looks like they forgot the other part. You'll have to find another example.

  7. #20367

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bithlord View Post
    To be honest, I'd prefer that they raise the other colors up to parity, rather than ban blue down to parity. But, there is no way that will ever happen because how could you do it without jsut making the blue cards in other colors?
    I think that this is the crux of the problem. As Zombie pointed out, card selection is one of the most inherently powerful actions in any sort of card game. Every color should have access to good card selection, not only Blue (possible exception being White, since they touch on everything else on the pie, so it's sensible for them to have a major downside in weak card selection). WotC has realized this and recently has been trying to hand it out to every color, each with their own twist (for example, Red's exile from top). The problem is that until other colors receive cards in the same power level of Brainstorm and Ponder, there is no reason not to run Blue.

    On another topic, I think that fetchlands are the worst thing that has ever happened to the game for multiple reasons but I understand that banning them is even more unreal than banning Brainstorm.

  8. #20368
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I think it would be enough to not outright ban "the cantrip shell" or any sizeable part of it, but to print accessible, relevant and individually strong (as in, Legacy playable in principle, even if they did not have this cantrip-nerving effect/ability) cards that make playing a cantrip-heavy game, or relying on cantrips doing their job properly, a liability. Stuff like Leovold, Emissary of Trest and Spirit of the Labyrinth kinda work in that direction, but the first one is just stupid (oughta be symmetric, so it doesn't find its way into Xerox to only fuck the opponent), and Spirit is too weak.

  9. #20369

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by colo View Post
    I think it would be enough to not outright ban "the cantrip shell" or any sizeable part of it, but to print accessible, relevant and individually strong (as in, Legacy playable in principle, even if they did not have this cantrip-nerving effect/ability) cards that make playing a cantrip-heavy game, or relying on cantrips doing their job properly, a liability. Stuff like Leovold, Emissary of Trest and Spirit of the Labyrinth kinda work in that direction, but the first one is just stupid (oughta be symmetric, so it doesn't find its way into Xerox to only fuck the opponent), and Spirit is too weak.
    W
    1/1
    If a card would cause a player to draw a card except the first one they draw in their draw step each turn, that player does not draw that card.

    or

    1W
    Enchantment
    If a card would cause a player to draw a card except the first one they draw in their draw step each turn, that player does not draw that card unless they pay (2).

  10. #20370

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    W
    1/1
    If a card would cause a player to draw a card except the first one they draw in their draw step each turn, that player does not draw that card.

    or

    1W
    Enchantment
    If a card would cause a player to draw a card except the first one they draw in their draw step each turn, that player does not draw that card unless they pay (2).
    Those are both atrocious vs half the format that doesn't run brainstorm. The card needs to be fine vs non brainstorm decks I would think. Put that text on wild nacatl maybe?
    Last edited by kinda; 09-17-2018 at 02:43 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

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    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  11. #20371
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Chains of Mephistopheles is a card that exists that does a lot of what you're looking for.
    If availability wasn't a factor I think you'd see it more often.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  12. #20372
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I own two Chains and whenever I try playing them (this is just my experience), they end up hurting me more than the opponent. In theory it seems great, but you need to give up card draw in your own deck (very bad) and in general the opponent can negate the disadvantage by cantripping in response, using removal on it, countering it or ignoring it anyway to just destroy you with whatever. (Edit: and like Kinda says they are very bad vs some popular decks). Similar to Chalice, the deck building cost seems too steep even if it occasionally wins you a game. Chalice is more powerful though.

    Edit: I'll repeat that I think a 2/2 creature with cost WG and hexproof and an effect saying that players can only draw one card per turn would do the trick. Being green makes it Green Sun's Zenithable which means it's worth playing as a one of, since you get 5 virtual copies in your list with 4 GSZ's, while only 1 in the matchups where it's useless (it can still be a 2/2 should you need it). And it's not answered by StP, bolt or Snapcaster Mage. This would be an efficient but not too powerful answer to Brainstorm. And good creature to put equipment on. Only a few decks would play it but it would offer a way to take blue decks down just a little bit, enough for other decks to be more relevant, relatively. But I may be far off on this...

  13. #20373

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    Edit: I'll repeat that I think a 2/2 creature with cost WG and hexproof and an effect saying that players can only draw one card per turn would do the trick. Being green makes it Green Sun's Zenithable which means it's worth playing as a one of, since you get 5 virtual copies in your list with 4 GSZ's, while only 1 in the matchups where it's useless (it can still be a 2/2 should you need it). And it's not answered by StP, bolt or Snapcaster Mage. This would be an efficient but not too powerful answer to Brainstorm. And good creature to put equipment on. Only a few decks would play it but it would offer a way to take blue decks down just a little bit, enough for other decks to be more relevant, relatively. But I may be far off on this...
    Why WG specifically? White Green already has a huge hate warehouse to pull from - spread the hate to other colors.

    {R/G}{R/G}
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  14. #20374
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    @Bithlord: you have a point but this card would just be a combination of features, and creatures, that already exist in these colors. For red-green we could wish for a hexproof Eidolon of the Great Revel, that could also do the trick.

    Edit: I'm an idiot, I just read what you wrote, again. To answer your question, WG could be included in a few decks that are already popular but not good enough, they need some help forward to open up the meta more. A green-red creature might not be played in any deck and so the effect would be wasted. I'd love to see it though.

  15. #20375
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Would also be cool to see a chains on legs. Maybe 2/1 for 1B, and give it a downside like you lose 1 life in your upkeep.
    -rob

  16. #20376

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    @Bithlord: you have a point but this card would just be a combination of features, and creatures, that already exist in these colors. For red-green we could wish for a hexproof Eidolon of the Great Revel, that could also do the trick.

    Edit: I'm an idiot, I just read what you wrote, again. To answer your question, WG could be included in a few decks that are already popular but not good enough, they need some help forward to open up the meta more. A green-red creature might not be played in any deck and so the effect would be wasted. I'd love to see it though.
    To be fair, the creature I made is also GG and RR (it's hybrid!). But, I think that's more my point -- White is able to come to the table without the cantrip package precisely because it has all the hate. What we need, assuming the cantrip package is locked into blue, is the hate to be spread to the other colors as well. (in my opinion of course).

  17. #20377

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by kinda View Post
    Those are both atrocious vs half the format that doesn't run brainstorm. The card needs to be fine vs non brainstorm decks I would think. Put that text on wild nacatl maybe?
    1 CMC 3/3 with hate attached? That seems broken. It could be a 2/2 for 1W Chains on a stick. That way it at least doubles as a threat. Alternatively could make it GW as people suggested so it can be tutored with GSZ.

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Chains of Mephistopheles is a card that exists that does a lot of what you're looking for.
    If availability wasn't a factor I think you'd see it more often.
    I'm aware of the card.

  18. #20378
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Looks like they forgot the other part. You'll have to find another example.
    You mean like TC, DTT, Chalice, Lodestone and Probe, which all followed?

    Including the original incident, at least 10 different cards have been restricted. Is that enough for you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  19. #20379

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    You mean like TC, DTT, Chalice, Lodestone and Probe, which all followed?

    Including the original incident, at least 10 different cards have been restricted. Is that enough for you?
    I can't keep up with these rocket powered goalposts.

  20. #20380

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    1 CMC 3/3 with hate attached? That seems broken.
    ...it really wouldn't be though. Wild nacatl is a running joke in this thread for a reason and it's not even modern viable. Adding the anti cantrip text to make it situationally better might make some people interested in zoo again (which is the goal right?) but miracles/stoneblade/sneak and skill would certainly still be better decks.

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