All B/R update speculation.

[iamajellydonut]

Way to completely mis-quote me.

I prefer the term "metaphrase", but to each his own.

Anyway, and seriously, there are realistic scenarios in the current day, in existing decks, where you can cram Mind Twist into a deck and reliably get all-your-hand-for-1s. Mind Twist doesn't need Rituals or some crazy blow-out in order to be successful.

[Megadeus]

Best case scenario you play it in like Esper Stoneblade or maybe a Nic Fit shell? Sure it's a damn powerful card, but is it really any more powerful than half the shit that sees play already?

[sdematt]

So Mind Twist can come off, in my opinion.

Want to ritual, ritual Mind Twist me? Say hello to Daze/FoW/Pierce.

It's better than Hymn naturally on Turn 4, when I could just be casting Jace.

It's likely best in a deck playing it as a 1-2 of for a the late game blowout of "discard your hand," but is that even good enough? Unlikely.

-Matt

[iamajellydonut]

Best case scenario you play it in like Esper Stoneblade or maybe a Nic Fit shell? Sure it's a damn powerful card, but is it really any more powerful than half the shit that sees play already?

"Powerful" is a very ambiguous word. Deathrite Shaman is a very "powerful" creature. Possibly the best in Legacy. But there's a difference between dropping a Deathrite Shaman for great positioning and discarding three cards.

All it takes to make Mind Twist effectively "end" the game is one more mana. Deathrite Shaman and Green Sun's Zenith both mean that a turn 3 Mind Twist for X=3 is a realistic possibility. And either you have a way to deal with it or you lose your hand. It's not an all-or-nothing type deal for the deck casting it. It's no skin off BUG or Jund's back if you counter the Mind Twist. Or if they can't stick a piece of acceleration it becomes a "meh" Hymn to Tourach, which isn't the worst thing in the world.

[Sloshthedark]

Delver:
If WotC did not ban it in the past, WotC certainly will not start now.

Survival:
The reasoning is that once un-banned, it's harder for all creature decks, all vial decks to Not run it. In other words, strategies would degenerate and decks would converge.

See DRS and SFM ... Decks degenerate and converge for years, it's hard to even tell one from another

SDT is one of the best designs and best cards ever created, slow as hell is it because of the slow as hell people plaing it

[Darkenslight]

See DRS and SFM ... Decks degenerate and converge for years, it's hard to even tell one from another

SDT is one of the best designs and best cards ever created, slow as hell is it because of the slow as hell people plaing it

This is a part of the problem with SDT, i suspect - very few players know how to stack correctly with SDT, and how to efficiently play with it. Feline is arguably the fastest player of SDT spins, and there are occasions when you have to tank and tank hard with it, but it's not horrible on the level of BS, which is arguably the most efficient draw-spell in the format.

[Wanderlust]

Sensei's Divining Top is fine - a very skill-testing card that provides playable card selection outside of blue. It has no business being banned right now. Not even remotely dominating the metagame. And banning it would likely lead to an even MORE Delver-dominated format - ugh! Who wants that??

I think the following would be completely safe to unban:
Survival of the Fittest
Earthcraft
Mind Twist
Frantic Search
Memory Jar

[Lemnear]

So Mind Twist can come off, in my opinion.

Want to ritual, ritual Mind Twist me? Say hello to Daze/FoW/Pierce.

It's better than Hymn naturally on Turn 4, when I could just be casting Jace.

It's likely best in a deck playing it as a 1-2 of for a the late game blowout of "discard your hand," but is that even good enough? Unlikely.

-Matt

I have no clue why everyone brings up dark Ritual for that instead of something like Elves, 12-Post, MUD or, god forbid, Cabal Ritual ;)

[Barook]

SDT is one of the best designs and best cards ever created, slow as hell is it because of the slow as hell people plaing it

No, just no. It's a terrible design. If it wasn't for its nigh indestructibility, maybe, but being able to save it from removal (or at least getting CA out of it) is just plain dumb, especially for its cost. Sure, Needle, Revoker and Krosan Grip can stop it, but that doesn't make the design any better.

[Sloshthedark]

This is a part of the problem with SDT, i suspect - very few players know how to stack correctly with SDT, and how to efficiently play with it. Feline is arguably the fastest player of SDT spins, and there are occasions when you have to tank and tank hard with it, but it's not horrible on the level of BS, which is arguably the most efficient draw-spell in the format.

You missed my point, the fisrt sentence, stoneforge-batterskull, DRS ar bannable the same as Delver or Survival imo

BS - it is most efficint spell in the format, one has to be, what's the problem? You can't apply standard/modern optics on whats too strong and whats not, legacy should have the most creative cards possible unless those make legacy absolutely retarded imo, see the comedy of modern banlist... BS is not a card you build around it's a card that makes building around something consistent, meaningful and expands your choices and viability of deckchoices for me its the most important card in the format and defines it... SFM-batterskull on for instance is a stupid linear way to win...

Elftwist, hmmm

No, just no. It's a terrible design. If it wasn't for its nigh indestructibility, maybe, but being able to save it from removal (or at least getting CA out of it) is just plain dumb, especially for its cost. Sure, Needle, Revoker and Krosan Grip can stop it, but that doesn't make the design any better.

For this exact reasons it is, its superpowerful yet not broken or played everywhere, colorless, cost efficient, somehow unique, skill intensive, great card, someone had to think when designing it, you can even build a combo deck around it, only problem is inability of many people to play it reasonably or our standards to enforce it

[Justin]

So Mind Twist can come off, in my opinion.

Want to ritual, ritual Mind Twist me? Say hello to Daze/FoW/Pierce.

It's better than Hymn naturally on Turn 4, when I could just be casting Jace.

It's likely best in a deck playing it as a 1-2 of for a the late game blowout of "discard your hand," but is that even good enough? Unlikely.

-Matt

Mind Twist with Dark Ritual is not as great as it seems. Even if you resolve a Dark Rit, Dark Rit, Mind Twist for four. You only gain a +1 card advantage because of three of your cards are hitting the graveyard. If you get unlucky with your opponent's random discard and/or don't have much else to speak of in your starting hand, you will still lose a lot of games. IMO, Mind Twist would be most effective in Black MUD decks, in which you can accelerate your mana to cast a big Mind Twist and maximize your card advantage. Even then, I'm not sure that Mind Twist is too powerful to deserve its continued placement on the Legacy ban list.

[davelin]

Well, you can say Hymn would have that ability too, situationally. And I would agree. But it's a capped version of Twist with stricter color requirements. There is nothing new, fun, or skill testing about getting Twisted out of the game. Looking back at any match where twist took an entire hand away, it becomes easy to see that is what lost me the game. In certain top deck scenarios it is worse than hymn, but in the ones where it isnt? It's like playing a double Hymn.

It's very arguable that in situations where a 4-5 mana Mind Twist took your entire hand away, you were pretty far behind already.

[menace13]

It's very arguable that in situations where a 4-5 mana Mind Twist took your entire hand away, you were pretty far behind already.

Right, because. Wait.. What?

[davelin]

Right, because. Wait.. What?

What decks in Legacy by turn 4 or 5 still have a full grip and no way to protect it?

[btm10]

No, just no. It's a terrible design. If it wasn't for its nigh indestructibility, maybe, but being able to save it from removal (or at least getting CA out of it) is just plain dumb, especially for its cost. Sure, Needle, Revoker and Krosan Grip can stop it, but that doesn't make the design any better.

The design is great, as has been pointed out by other people. It's even nonblue (and playable with nonblue cards). It's not Top's fault that people are bad and slow at using it sometimes. It's also worth pointing out that the decks that want Top generally (though not necessarily) turn on more complex decision trees than most decks that don't run it, often because they force the pilot to constantly evaluate which cards go to his or her and vs. stay on top of the library and how each interacts with the opponent's board and hand, when it's time to fetch to have more mana vs. continuing to float important spells, and that's not even taking Counterbalance interactions with those decisions into account. Even if someone tanks on Top for a bit, it's not necessarily because they're bad. It might even be because they're good.

I have no clue why everyone brings up dark Ritual for that instead of something like Elves, 12-Post, MUD or, god forbid, Cabal Ritual ;)

I think (as someone who did it) that the Ritual -> Mind Twist opener is the fastest "scary" scenario that pops into people's heads. I agree that it's not very powerful when you actually stop and think about it. I went for accessible instead of good in the example. My bad. Nonetheless, if U/B Tezz or Elves or something decided to run Twist, I'm not sure it would be overpowered. Swamp, go followed by Ancient Tomb, Twist for 2 is the same as Swamp, Swamp, Hymn and costs life. Around turn 3 it does get (and stay) better, especially with stuff like Dimir Signet/Talisman of Dominance, but then you're committing a whole turn to Twist them and hoping that you have a threat or bomb to follow up. So there are shells powerful enough to make it good - but I'm not sure they're powerful enough to make it broken. In fact, if it nudges Tezz into the top tier, I think that's a win for everyone.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

The only really scary Twist scenario is turn1 Tomb->Monolith, go, turn2 Swamp, Mind Twist for a lot. Broken? Idk. It needs a pretty solid hand and still dies to Spell Pierce.
edit: or to Divert.

[Megadeus]

Yeah turn two twist for five is strong certainly. But the MUD player also could've been casting a Wurm coil, or a forge master or something

[iamajellydonut]

It's all great and well to say "oh, but we have counter magic", but I mean, if you guys really want to keep in a full suite of countermagic post-board against some shitty G/x/x aggro decks just because they have Mind Twist in the 75, that's fine by us.

[menace13]

What decks in Legacy by turn 4 or 5 still have a full grip and no way to protect it?

In games of magic. No one ever wins. Everything gets answered. All the time. Unban every card because statistical data proves every Legacy deck by turn 4 or 5 has a way to protect it. The opponent's deck doesnt exist.


Is it that far out of the ordinary that by those turns there are maybe 2-4 permanents in play and around 4-5 cards in any players hand? What if it is an aggro deck? That doesnt have counterspells. Can it protect its hand then? Obviously no, right? Is the deck with the Mind twist also a deck with a sweeper? You cant really just run out your hand then can you? Maybe even a combo deck didnt get all the pieces in time and/or was slowed down by counters just enough to get double hymned out of the game. Say it's 2 blue decks and a counter war ensues because it's most likely a must counter this or I lose scenario. They can have the bomb+protection which beats out countering the bomb.

It's all great and well to say "oh, but we have counter magic", but I mean, if you guys really want to keep in a full suite of countermagic post-board against some shitty G/x/x aggro decks just because they have Mind Twist in the 75, that's fine by us.

Precisely. We can swap out G/x/x aggro decks with anything that could play a black dual land. Very little downside of trying to resolve one. Sure, it could have been a Jace, or another threat. But wouldn't it be better to wipe opponents hand then land that same threat? Or at worst it's a psuedo-duress that eats a counterspell/discard spell. The worst performance of it is an over-costed hymn. It's best is an entire hand wipe.

[btm10]

In games of magic. No one ever wins. Everything gets answered. All the time. Unban every card because statistical data proves every Legacy deck by turn 4 or 5 has a way to protect it. The opponent's deck doesnt exist.


Is it that far out of the ordinary that by those turns there are maybe 2-4 permanents in play and around 4-5 cards in any players hand? What if it is an aggro deck? That doesnt have counterspells. Can it protect its hand then? Obviously no, right? Is the deck with the Mind twist also a deck with a sweeper? You cant really just run out your hand then can you? Maybe even a combo deck didnt get all the pieces in time and/or was slowed down by counters just enough to get double hymned out of the game. Say it's 2 blue decks and a counter war ensues because it's most likely a must counter this or I lose scenario. They can have the bomb+protection which beats out countering the bomb.

Precisely. We can swap out G/x/x aggro decks with anything that could play a black dual land. Very little downside of trying to resolve one. Sure, it could have been a Jace, or another threat. But wouldn't it be better to wipe opponents hand then land that same threat? Or at worst it's a psuedo-duress that eats a counterspell/discard spell. The worst performance of it is an over-costed hymn. It's best is an entire hand wipe.

The worst performance of Twist is actually as bad Duress (for X = 1), but that's not really important. The larger point is that Legacy is already a pretty bomb-heavy format anyway - half of the decks in the top tier run Jace as part of the stock list, probably more than that run Liliana, and then you have archetype specific bombs like Ancestral Vision and Show and Tell. Another bomb won't ruin the format, and it probably won't increase the proportion of one-sided blowouts, either. If it does increase the number of blowouts, it will be because it made a new deck competitive rather than because it found an easy home in an existing deck. I don't see the UG Cloudpost players becoming BUG decks to support Twist, but maybe B/R (or Grixis) Mudpost would be a thing. Those sound like interesting decks. Let's throw them a bone. In the worst case, it's still re-bannable and there are worse things than a maybe-bad season of Legacy.


All that being said - it's probably better to just unban Earthcarft or Vise first because most people would agree that neither is likely to be high-impact and unbanning a single card at a time would make the impact of that one card clearer and allow the new metagame to settle quickly. I basically agree with nedleeds' list, with Earthcraft and Mind Twist's positions flipped. As much as I love Enchantress and want to bust my Korean Earthcrafts out, the deck is probably not quite good enough even with Earthcraft to be anything approaching bannable. And a few successful unbannings might allow something like Survival to come off experimentally. I don't think that it would be as bad as the detractors do, but let's get the low hanging fruit off of the list before pretending that Survival is as low on the potential-for-abuse scale as Vise or Earthcraft is.