View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #7941
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Watching Todd anderson cast no cantrip and have a natural turn 2 Show and Tell for whatever he wants with force back-up makes me wonder some more why some of these other cards are still banned.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
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    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  2. #7942

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Just 4 sotf 4 vengevine and some fauna shaman in ELF cutting glimpse and some others elfs.
    You have acces to survival+NO ftw

  3. #7943
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by adrieng View Post
    Just 4 sotf 4 vengevine and some fauna shaman in ELF cutting glimpse and some others elfs.
    You have acces to survival+NO ftw
    That seems... Horrible. Feel free to test it and prove me wrong though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  4. #7944

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Right BUG delver racing turn 2 survival with a G open. Delver is a 6 turn clock at the fastest unless your opponent really deals themselves a lot of damage. And if they're committing more threats to the board instead of blowing up survival you just have more mana to use with it/you have 4 vines in play on turn 4 swinging for 16.

    Deathrite is answerable by survival if it really is a problem. They tutor up fire imp, revoker to name, it, etc. etc. and poof it does nothing. As for the lists posted not running e wit those lists are not remotely optimized. Every single survival deck should auto include at least 1 e wit without question as it is a powerful effect.

    As for needing mana to cast e wit and such, who cares? Most things in legacy cost mana last I checked. Even brainstorm does. Wasteland costs you mana even because it uses up your land drop if you play it and blow up a land with it immediately.

    You think deadguy has a 50/50 shot against survival? You're terrible at matchup evaluation then. Survival is designed to beat the crap out of fair strategies and it does so quite effectively. It beats combo too. Tell me, how much do you want to resolve a show and tell against a survival with a G open? Oh right survival tutors up fatty of choice in response and puts it into play off your show and tell. Or they put in survival itself off show and tell and get access to their whole deck/they can very likely answer what you dropped off show and tell. The only reason this sounds good is because of how much I hate show and tell as a magic card for being so mindless.
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  5. #7945
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    There is also Josh Layton's Elves Survival List.

    Maindeck (60)
    14 Forest
    4 Gaeas Cradle
    1 Elvish Visionary
    1 Eternal Witness
    4 Fauna Shaman
    3 Fyndhorn Elves
    4 Heritage Druid
    4 Llanowar Elves
    4 Nettle Sentinel
    4 Quirion Ranger
    1 Regal Force
    1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
    3 Vengevine
    2 Wirewood Symbiote
    1 Cloudstone Curio
    4 Glimpse of Nature
    1 Primal Command
    4 Survival of the Fittest
    Sideboard (15)
    4 Mindbreak Trap
    4 Natural Order
    1 Progenitus
    2 Thorn of Amethyst
    2 Tormods Crypt
    2 Viridian Shaman

    I remember a few lists playing LED with their Survival. Cant recall off hand, it's been many years since I've seen them.
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  6. #7946
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Ritual View Post
    Right BUG delver racing turn 2 survival with a G open. Delver is a 6 turn clock at the fastest unless your opponent really deals themselves a lot of damage. And if they're committing more threats to the board instead of blowing up survival you just have more mana to use with it/you have 4 vines in play on turn 4 swinging for 16.

    Deathrite is answerable by survival if it really is a problem. They tutor up fire imp, revoker to name, it, etc. etc. and poof it does nothing. As for the lists posted not running e wit those lists are not remotely optimized. Every single survival deck should auto include at least 1 e wit without question as it is a powerful effect.

    As for needing mana to cast e wit and such, who cares? Most things in legacy cost mana last I checked. Even brainstorm does. Wasteland costs you mana even because it uses up your land drop if you play it and blow up a land with it immediately.

    You think deadguy has a 50/50 shot against survival? You're terrible at matchup evaluation then. Survival is designed to beat the crap out of fair strategies and it does so quite effectively. It beats combo too. Tell me, how much do you want to resolve a show and tell against a survival with a G open? Oh right survival tutors up fatty of choice in response and puts it into play off your show and tell. Or they put in survival itself off show and tell and get access to their whole deck/they can very likely answer what you dropped off show and tell. The only reason this sounds good is because of how much I hate show and tell as a magic card for being so mindless.
    What survival deck is playing Fire Imp? get outta here with that garbage. The more narrow cards you play to answer specific situations, the less consistency and more awkward hands you have to keep and the more your deck relies on Survival. Delver can easily play things like Spell Snare, and force and such like they already do to answer survival.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  7. #7947
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by menace13 View Post
    There is also Josh Layton's Elves Survival List.

    Maindeck (60)
    14 Forest
    4 Gaeas Cradle
    1 Elvish Visionary
    1 Eternal Witness
    4 Fauna Shaman
    3 Fyndhorn Elves
    4 Heritage Druid
    4 Llanowar Elves
    4 Nettle Sentinel
    4 Quirion Ranger
    1 Regal Force
    1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
    3 Vengevine
    2 Wirewood Symbiote
    1 Cloudstone Curio
    4 Glimpse of Nature
    1 Primal Command
    4 Survival of the Fittest
    Sideboard (15)
    4 Mindbreak Trap
    4 Natural Order
    1 Progenitus
    2 Thorn of Amethyst
    2 Tormods Crypt
    2 Viridian Shaman

    I remember a few lists playing LED with their Survival. Cant recall off hand, it's been many years since I've seen them.
    Why not simply play Green Sun in place of Survival?
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  8. #7948
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Why not simply play Green Sun in place of Survival?
    Probably because of Vengevine plan. IDK. I just posted some deck lists that placed during Venge-Survival's tenure. I don't play Surv nor would I, I hate creatures, so
    Quote Originally Posted by Cavius The Great View Post
    Respect my shine bitch!

  9. #7949
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by menace13 View Post
    Probably because of Vengevine plan. IDK. I just posted some deck lists that placed during Venge-Survival's tenure. I don't play Surv nor would I, I hate creatures, so
    Don't think Green Sun existed when that list came out. That is another card that usurps Survival in a lot of decks, especially one as already incredibly tuned and efficient as current elves builds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  10. #7950

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I'm really skeptical about Survival being a problem when we have a legal flying lifelinking Yawgmoth's bargain with legs running around.

  11. #7951
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Don't think Green Sun existed when that list came out. That is another card that usurps Survival in a lot of decks, especially one as already incredibly tuned and efficient as current elves builds.
    Are you seriously saying GSZ has the power level of Survival? GSZ is great, sure, it's not Survival.

  12. #7952
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by HrishiQQ View Post
    I'm really skeptical about Survival being a problem when we have a legal flying lifelinking Yawgmoth's bargain with legs running around.
    Every Survival, Earthlink, Hermit Druid, Mind Twist, Frantic Search, etc. reduces the viability of "fair decks" by forcing them to compete with another instant win.

    On the other hand, Mana Drain gives them another tool to respond but is pretty much never considered for unbanning. Probably because combo decks would use it.

  13. #7953

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by HSCK View Post
    Are you seriously saying GSZ has the power level of Survival? GSZ is great, sure, it's not Survival.
    Its better in many decks.

  14. #7954
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Yeah, I mean what we're seeing here is why I asked for actual decklists, a replay of the old Toad/Psychatog problem that we were making fun of with Thunder Bluff; it's easy to say, "Survival decks can be so good, they can do this, or that, or this other busted thing, and have all these answers to hate and removal, and run all these other backup cards so it's still good even if they don't have Survival."

    But they can't do all those things at once. There isn't space. So you get lists full of holes and vulnerabilities like the ones people are producing right now.
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  15. #7955
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    What survival deck is playing Fire Imp? get outta here with that garbage. The more narrow cards you play to answer specific situations...
    It's a removal on a body. It can't be that bad. After all, there are decks that play Stinkscrunger and nobody argues that it's narrow card that should be switched for Lightning Bolt.

  16. #7956
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer View Post
    It's a removal on a body. It can't be that bad. After all, there are decks that play Stinkscrunger and nobody argues that it's narrow card that should be switched for Lightning Bolt.
    It's still 2RG and two cards to kill a creature. If you're trying to kill a DRS with it, I doubt that you have an active Squee. Also, you basically spend a turn doing it because of the cost.

  17. #7957
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by btm10 View Post
    It's still 2RG and two cards to kill a creature. If you're trying to kill a DRS with it, I doubt that you have an active Squee. Also, you basically spend a turn doing it because of the cost.
    It costs 2R. All other costs are costs of other cards.
    Look, I'm not saying SotF is busted coz of Fire Imp. I'm defending Fire Imp, because it's a 2/1 dude that kills DRS and Delver, creatures that make like 80 % of Legacy meta. Imho Fire Imp is solid for Dragon Stonpy deck, as every time I won against that pile of crap was when I played Devler, flipped it and flied all over the Moons and Trinispheres and Gathan Riders and whatnot.

  18. #7958
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    Yeah, I mean what we're seeing here is why I asked for actual decklists, a replay of the old Toad/Psychatog problem that we were making fun of with Thunder Bluff; it's easy to say, "Survival decks can be so good, they can do this, or that, or this other busted thing, and have all these answers to hate and removal, and run all these other backup cards so it's still good even if they don't have Survival."

    But they can't do all those things at once. There isn't space. So you get lists full of holes and vulnerabilities like the ones people are producing right now.
    You take that back IBA! Thunder Bluff was the best Legacy deck I have even played. Hell Flash Hulk was even a positive matchup for it. I still think Anuba Grunt should be banned today, just due to the possibility of someone picking Thunder Bluff back up and 9-0ing a 7 round SCG.

  19. #7959

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Can Survival of the Fittest be unbanned now that Abrupt Decay sees so much play?

    The problem that WotC saw with SoTF when they banned it was that it created too much consistency for the lists that used it since they could replace a creature that didn't fit a given situation for another that did for just and at instant speed. It was also problematic for a lot of lists to deal with once it landed because the main deck removal for enchantments was kind of limited at that point.

    Now we have a turn 2 answer for SoTF that is played in about 25% of the lists in the meta as a main deck option. Is that enough to get it back off the list? It wouldn't become broken in Show and Tell type lists because of the reguirement that you have a creature in hand to activate it. Play enough creatures to make it good and your blue count goes way down as does your denial and other search options. It wouldn't be broken in Reanimator because it's too slow to be an improvement over what that list already does.

    It seems like it would be a reasonable card at this point.

  20. #7960
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    No.
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