View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #22721

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...lpuff_st_place

    Post ban challenge

    Companion count:

    Yorion: 8
    Gyruda: 3
    Jegantha: 2
    Also, Uro and Oko present in 50% of the decks. Delver, that terrible formidable weapon reduced to 9% of the decks...

  2. #22722
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Yorion is already pretty stupid as it is by just jamming it into value decks. People haven't even really started trying to break, e.g. with Restoration Angel/Felidar Guardian chains for maximum snowballing.

  3. #22723

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    Or just play Modern if that's the format you want.
    If you want to just play the cards you like with no sense of balance, and a solved meta I recommend your kitchen table.

  4. #22724
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Purple Blood View Post
    Honest question: if they banned Brainstorm would the meta change all that much?

    Four Brainstorms becomes four Preordains. The decks running Brainstorm will lose a few % points to the non Brainstorm decks. However, being that most decks are Brainstorm decks, overall you will see no major change to the win rates and therefore likely no shift in the meta.

    Maybe I'm underestimating the downgrade of Brainstorm to Preordain?
    Yes and no. Ponder and Preordain are powerful, yet completely fair effects.
    Banning Brainstorm would hurt blue combo decks the most.
    Blue value decks would still have an edge over combo, but the drop of blue combo may also decrease their share in the metagame.
    More importantly, banning Brainstorm would make Thoughtseize relevant again, and hence the black value decks.
    Most importantly, banning Brainstorm may get us back other banned cards.
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    i like how you downplay "those other things" like they are unimportant. those other things were lynchpins in decks sacrificed for BS.
    would "those other things" be banned if BS was not in the format? that's my question.

    how many people would like to play with "those other things"? SDT, DTT, DRS, Breach, W&6, TC, Probe, MindTwist and ManaDrain
    Not necessarily agreeing with all the listed cards, I second the sentiment of the quote. I play Legacy because I enjoy playing with all the powerful effects. I enjoy a lot playing with Brainstorm, but I would enjoy playing with many other cards when Brainstorm is axed.

    Quote Originally Posted by phonics View Post
    I think there is a general misunderstanding of the 'debate' that dominates this thread. The discussion is mostly between a group of realists that see that brainstorm is untouchable and idealists that want brainstorm gone. There isnt any meaningful discussion because both sides aren't even approaching the issue in the same context.
    Realists and idealists are a nice separation. I would describe my idealism as minimalism, how to keep Legacy a fun format with the shortest ban list.
    On the Sep 2011 Ban List Updates,
    Quote Originally Posted by Lancer View Post
    Yep DCI/Wizards never fails... those that cry the loudest wins!

  5. #22725

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    conflate much? what ONE card in vintage could be a comparison to BS?

    I don't play vintage anymore, but when I did (type1), I hated mirror universe (mana burn during your untap phase, really!?!)
    It's apples to oranges since mirror universe just ended the game but BS just incentivizes blue stew in legacy.
    I miss the secret tech of Eladamri's Vineyard being a wincon, mana burn, i miss thee.
    Last edited by ahg113; 05-23-2020 at 12:20 PM.

  6. #22726

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by tsabo_tavoc View Post
    Yes and no. Ponder and Preordain are powerful, yet completely fair effects.
    Are you unfamiliar with the Turbo Xerox concept? Ponder and Preordain aren't exactly fair effects, after all both are banned in Modern and one is restricted in Vintage (and Preordain is arguably worthy of restriction depending on who you ask).

  7. #22727
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ahg113 View Post
    I miss the secret tech of Eldamri's Vineyard being a wincon, mana burn, i miss thee.
    What a gem it was; carpet of flowers and sulfuric vortex all in one. Well, carpet for you and vortex for opponent.

  8. #22728
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    Are you unfamiliar with the Turbo Xerox concept? Ponder and Preordain aren't exactly fair effects, after all both are banned in Modern and one is restricted in Vintage (and Preordain is arguably worthy of restriction depending on who you ask).
    I feast on those decks by Chalice of the Void. It is a lot closer with Brainstorm to dig for Counterspells turn1 and shuffling away dead cards. Xerox would be a healthy and fair deck once their unfair card is banned, I would rather give them Gitaxian Probe in return.
    On the Sep 2011 Ban List Updates,
    Quote Originally Posted by Lancer View Post
    Yep DCI/Wizards never fails... those that cry the loudest wins!

  9. #22729

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by tsabo_tavoc View Post
    I feast on those decks by Chalice of the Void. It is a lot closer with Brainstorm to dig for Counterspells turn1 and shuffling away dead cards. Xerox would be a healthy and fair deck once their unfair card is banned, I would rather give them Gitaxian Probe in return.
    There's no need for chalice to remain legal if brainstorm is banned. It is a format corrector that is too powerful with brainstorm benched.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

  10. #22730

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    There's no need for chalice to remain legal if brainstorm is banned. It is a format corrector that is too powerful with brainstorm benched.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
    Disagree. While many people are butt hurt about chalice on 1, it is modal and scales down or up, so it's reach is beyond 1-card. That and the fact it is symetrical, and easily answerable (shattering spree, a.decay) means it is a fine card. It doesn't reach the saturation points that other bannable cards have met either. Requiring specific consideration for deck design is also a merit plus for chalice.

  11. #22731

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    If you want to just play the cards you like with no sense of balance, and a solved meta I recommend your kitchen table.
    Why would you assume the format would become balanced by banning the two best cantrips? For example, what happens if after that non-blue Wasteland, Chalice, or Depths decks are dominating the format? Then some of those get banned. Maybe after that Reanimator becomes too strong now that the whole rest of the format is weaker so they ban Griselbrand. (Not saying this is exactly how it would go but I hope you get the point that there is no end to this and that without as many FoW decks policing the format it will devolve into a shit fest like post-Twin Modern.) Go on down this road far enough and you see why I brought up Modern. We've seen how that plays out.

    It's already been beaten to death but the reality is Brainstorm (and fetches) are part of the format. Just like in Vintage Bazaar and Shops are part of the format which has caused other cards to get restricted which wouldn't need to be the case if they were restricted. I only bring this up to say, you can balance a format even with a broken card remaining unbanned. There's more than one banlist iteration that would achieve format balance. Does it make it a bit more difficult and cumbersome to maintain a banlist when you have sacred cows? Sure. Does it make it impossible? No.

    One thing I have my eye on is Historic. This is a first of its kind whitelist format insofar as they are selectively printing in cards over time. In theory, a whitelist format, if properly cultivated over time, can create the most diverse and well-balanced meta. Instead of banning cards, they can print in answers. H talks about how metas are naturally restrictive which I agree with completely. A whitelist format can avoid that problem. There's decades worth of already established archetypes. All they have to do is slowly print them into the format and then at some point you get a format where every conceivable strategy is playable and where none of the most egregious design mistakes see the light of day. At least in theory.

  12. #22732

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ahg113 View Post
    Disagree. While many people are butt hurt about chalice on 1, it is modal and scales down or up, so it's reach is beyond 1-card. That and the fact it is symetrical, and easily answerable (shattering spree, a.decay) means it is a fine card. It doesn't reach the saturation points that other bannable cards have met either. Requiring specific consideration for deck design is also a merit plus for chalice.
    Thanks for disagreeing.

    I am definitely not "butthurt" about Chalice. I love stax, was my first legacy deck that wasn't a port-over from standard.

    The "specific consideration" for deck design includes mainly thinking of ways to play it on turn one for one counter, and only consider 0, 1, and (sometimes) 2 counters to really be reasonable Chalice payments - otherwise it steps on its own strategem. This is where the argument for it being symmetrical really falls apart. It is stated symmetrically, but the end result is not truly symmetrical, inherently due to those "specific considerations" that started the conversation.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

  13. #22733

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    Thanks for disagreeing.

    I am definitely not "butthurt" about Chalice. I love stax, was my first legacy deck that wasn't a port-over from standard.

    The "specific consideration" for deck design includes mainly thinking of ways to play it on turn one for one counter, and only consider 0, 1, and (sometimes) 2 counters to really be reasonable Chalice payments - otherwise it steps on its own strategem. This is where the argument for it being symmetrical really falls apart. It is stated symmetrically, but the end result is not truly symmetrical, inherently due to those "specific considerations" that started the conversation.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
    You're welcome, and not obviously not many people.

    Unless the chalice player is playing uncounterable cards, or using things like Cavern of Souls or Vexing Shusher it is symetrical, because the player is eschewing those spells at those cmc. Counter Balance is an unsymetrical card, regardless of deck construction. That's the card that should be/have been banned. But we all know that.

    Stax, a specific and niche deck that plays to a certain goal with hyper focused deck construction, kinda the antithesis of xerox. More of that would be welcome, and a suitable place for chalice. Something that's obviously not a good stuff pile + cantrips.

  14. #22734

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    When I read the discussion in this thread I cannot help to have the feeling that ultimately, the issue is with the decision making of the people leading it. So , when I see a discussion re format vision, etc it reminds those purely theoretical art discussions in school. I mean, these guys that design this game have a single job, good limited and standard. They have designed a standard that has 4 banned cards and that is running a deck at 31.82% of the meta, barely two weeks after release. We may all have visions of what legacy should be, but the custodians of it cannot even do their job properly, let alone worry about other things...

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/standard#online

    Now, lets discuss minimalism.

  15. #22735

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Brainstorm is fine, fetches are fine. My thesis: People that are crying for a ban of either of those two, are simply bored of always having to play (against) the same stuff. Go play draft. Get yourself a decent kitchentable and invite over some friends. This will heal your tortured soul. Leave us cool kids alone!

  16. #22736

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Yeah, Legacy is the cool kids format! Nerds and Dweebs and Doofuses get lost!

  17. #22737
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    There's no need for chalice to remain legal if brainstorm is banned. It is a format corrector that is too powerful with brainstorm benched.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
    Chalice decks are kept in check by Wasteland. Not a coincidence most succesful Chalice decks in Legacy use Moon effects.
    Chalice is one of the easiest card to play around: Diversify the curve. With ever more maindeckable hates Kolaghan's Command, Abrade, and now hates with Awesome Brazen Borrower, Chalice becomes ever safer. In the only format that limits Chalice, it is a 0-mana card and boosted by 4 Mishra's Workshop!
    On the Sep 2011 Ban List Updates,
    Quote Originally Posted by Lancer View Post
    Yep DCI/Wizards never fails... those that cry the loudest wins!

  18. #22738

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour_Asses View Post
    Yeah, Legacy is the cool kids format! Nerds and Dweebs and Doofuses get lost!
    and there it is; elitism. "if you don't play BS then you're not good enough"
    BS is a crutch that enables blue stew piles and you can't even imagine playing a non-BS deck.
    do you make fun of the yugioh players, too?

    i've made legacy decks for our saturday night legacy events for about 10 years. i bring anywhere from 4-6 decks to loan out and even do requests.
    i'll make any deck as long as you come and play.
    new (usually standard & EDH) players will come and ask me how to get started in legacy.
    but before i can tell them about buying staples like a dual land or a force of will, they usually say something like, "I've got my 4 brainstorms so i want to play legacy"
    i usually just chuckle to myself and then show them all the other decks they could be playing...

  19. #22739

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzlenasty View Post
    Brainstorm is fine, fetches are fine. My thesis: People that are crying for a ban of either of those two, are simply bored of always having to play (against) the same stuff. Go play draft. Get yourself a decent kitchentable and invite over some friends. This will heal your tortured soul. Leave us cool kids alone!
    You should flesh out your thesis more: why are people tired of it? I know defending a thesis is boring stuff for boring people but you should really explore that more. I'd start at meta share it some such metric.

  20. #22740

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    and there it is; elitism. "if you don't play BS then you're not good enough"
    BS is a crutch that enables blue stew piles and you can't even imagine playing a non-BS deck.
    do you make fun of the yugioh players, too?

    i've made legacy decks for our saturday night legacy events for about 10 years. i bring anywhere from 4-6 decks to loan out and even do requests.
    i'll make any deck as long as you come and play.
    new (usually standard & EDH) players will come and ask me how to get started in legacy.
    but before i can tell them about buying staples like a dual land or a force of will, they usually say something like, "I've got my 4 brainstorms so i want to play legacy"
    i usually just chuckle to myself and then show them all the other decks they could be playing...
    Who needs brainstorm in this meta where I control all the decks at this casual event? Jeeze, crutch mutch!

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