All B/R update speculation.

[JDK]

I asked them to ban Top in the survey somone posted a few days ago. Thank me for making Legacy great again. :]

[KZhang]

I still wonder about the timing for the Eternal changes. The data to justify a Top ban has been there for years, but why now? It wouldn't suprise me if it is partly used as a distraction since they didn't do jackshit to Standard. Again. No changes at all would probably cause a riot.

Because sets are planned a couple of years in advance, and Top was placed in EMA.

They probably wanted to do it much earlier, but couldn't ban Top until EMA was released for sometime.

[ubernostrum]

Strongly suspect that:

• By end of 2017: Deathrite Shaman will not be legal in Legacy.
• By end of 2018: Something from the Delver shell and something from at-the-time-most-popular combo deck will be banned in Legacy. Intuition tells me LED or Griselbrand.
• By end of 2019: Something else from the Delver shell, and 1-2 more combo cards will get the axe.
• 2020: Legacy players wonder whether they should have celebrated WotC "listening" to internet complaints.

[Barook]

Because sets are planned a couple of years in advance, and Top was placed in EMA.

They probably wanted to do it much earlier, but couldn't ban Top until EMA was released for sometime.

That's still a 3/4 year to get it done. They even just released Counterbalance as invocation - which is completely worthless without Top.

Strongly suspect that:

• By end of 2017: Deathrite Shaman will not be legal in Legacy.
• By end of 2018: Something from the Delver shell and something from at-the-time-most-popular combo deck will be banned in Legacy. Intuition tells me LED or Griselbrand.
• By end of 2019: Something else from the Delver shell, and 1-2 more combo cards will get the axe.
• 2020: Legacy players wonder whether they should have celebrated WotC "listening" to internet complaints.

So they're fixing the format by getting rid of all the cancer that shat up the format since Delver was released? Good riddance!

[porcupinetreeman]

I voted for top years ago in this thread lol

[btm10]

I still wonder about the timing for the Eternal changes. The data to justify a Top ban has been there for years, but why now? It wouldn't surprise me if it is partly used as a distraction since they didn't do jackshit to Standard. Again. No changes at all would probably cause a riot.

I think Top/Miracles had been on the watchlist since Dig got banned but there kept being hiccups that could lead them to say 'maybe this is enough to rein it in'. And a lot of times the initial 'maybe' was plausible - the Aether Revolt B/R meeting almost surely came on the heels of Duke's GP win with 8 mana dorks (making it seem like Leovold did his job), Kaladesh came out on the heels of Leovold and Sanctum Prelate being printed, and Recruiter of the Guard and Eldrazi before that. The bar for bannings to nerf Control decks is historically pretty high, ostensibly because they slow formats down and can make games seem interactive even if they're too good for healthy competitive metagames.

[ScottW]

The banner for this thread is silly now: "not that they will touch it." Also, I'm sure it was the 192 people participating in this poll that had the biggest impact on the banning. I'm selling all my Tarmogoyf tomorrow (wait, I don't own any). I guess I have to sell my LEDs

[phg22]

On the topic of banning Top vs Counterbalance or Terminus, does anyone think WotC cares about the optics of having cards banned in legacy but legal in moden?

[Crimhead]

On the topic of banning Top vs Counterbalance or Terminus, does anyone think WotC cares about the optics of having cards banned in legacy but legal in moden?

I really hope not. We have cards legal in legacy but restricted in Vintage. DRS was banned in Modern but legal in Standard.

This sort of thing helps convey that the formats have different textures.

[MorphBerlin]

BUGx TNN + Leovold. Not that Miracles stomped over that deck (in fact, Miracles had an even to unfavorable MU against them), but now that the premier "doesn't target to remove" deck is gone, TNN will become better and Leovold will nearly always draw you a card.

Have you even played a BUG-Deck ever? Against Burn, Lands, Elves, TurboDebths, S&T, MonoR Sneak? It has enough natural enemies unlike Miracles.

Well, when I read in the Miracles threat you guys were allways claiming BUG as a unfavorable Miracles MU was far fetched especially since the swith to MD Predict. No it suddenly changes so you can cry about the ban... I must say Miracles (ex)players are really entertaining at times^^

[Tittliewinks22]

Is it too soon to discuss unbanning Earthcraft again? :D

[Megadeus]

Ban Brainstorm

[frogczar]

Wow. I can't believe WotC actually made a ban in Legacy. Not only that, but a ban that might actually really impact things. Does this mean you like me again Wizards? Are you saying we can be friends?

Sensei's Stalling Top was a card I disliked but never felt like it was trouble until we had Counterbalance. Then they made miracles.

Good riddance.

[LegacyIsAnEternalFormat]

now that they banned top, is there any argument for keeping mana drain banned?

[Lava Snacks]

This isn't an explicit argument against the ban, but part of me does wonder how much Legacy knowledge the B/R people have. I mean, have Aaron Forsythe and the rest even heard of DDFT? Maybe they don't even know that they killed decks, so it couldn't factor in.

[CutthroatCasual]

So they're killing the format by getting rid of all the good stuff that made the format more interesting than Modern since Delver was released?

Fixed that for you. If you want to play a format dominated by midrange, there's one that shares the first letter with the archetype.

[Dice_Box]

This isn't an explicit argument against the ban, but part of me does wonder how much Legacy knowledge the B/R people have. I mean, have Aaron Forsythe and the rest even heard of DDFT? Maybe they don't even know that they killed decks, so it couldn't factor in.

To be fair, the choice was one of "Kill the enabler or the enabled." They went with the enabler. I do not feel decks like 12 post, Painter, DDFT or Nic Fit ever hit the radar. Nor do I think if they had of hit the radar it would have changed anything.

Wizards state they wish to hit the card that makes things happen, Flash, Survival, Pod and Twin all show that to be true. The only format they honesty choose to not follow this rule is in Vintage where they choose to leave things like Bazaar, Ritual* and Workshop alone. I also wish they had of left Gush alone. But that's a talk for a different time.

*I am not suggesting Ritual should be Restricted, but at one point there was an argument for it and it was left untouched as a "Pillar".

[Megadeus]

*I am not suggesting Ritual should be Restricted, but at one point there was an argument for it and it was left untouched as a "Pillar".

Unfortunately it will never be a Pillar again in a world of Misstep your misstep that is misstepping my misstep that is misstepping your ritual

[Dice_Box]

Fixed that for you. If you want to play a format dominated by midrange, there's one that shares the first letter with the archetype.

Honest question. Why is it I am hearing how midrange is going to take over in a world where Tempo, Combo and Prison Control decks all exist? I mean, if I thought a field was going to be Delver, Lands, ANT and SnT, I don't think I am showing up with Jund, BUG or 4Colour.

I am not sold on "Midrange: the format" as a true direction for us. Sure, midrange style decks will increase in popularity as things like Push come to the front and as people look to see if Blade decks are viable again. That's not the format though, that's not also including the people moving over to SnT because they already have fetches and Volcanics, that's not including the people picking up TES, ANT and other quick combo decks as they test the waters.

Miracles fading doesn't mean suddenly everyone is playing Blade, BUG and Jund. I mean, please do, they are wonderful meals for my Dark Mistress.

[PirateKing]

Honest question. Why is it I am hearing how midrange is going to take over in a world where Tempo, Combo and Prison Control decks all exist?

Because to a few Miracles=Control and Control=Miracles. Miracles is not longer a deck, which means there will never be control ever again, ever. Once you believe that then they can give you the entire rabbit hole tour.