All B/R update speculation.

[CptHaddock]

Because to a few Miracles=Control and Control=Miracles. Miracles is not longer a deck, which means there will never be control ever again, ever. Once you believe that then they can give you the entire rabbit hole tour.

Right on the money.

It's not like before miracles there were different styles of control (draw/go, tap out, aggro-control, prison, etc) and the respective advantages or disadvantages of playing each subtype. I'm going to channel my inner nedleeds and blame the children.

[Crimhead]

Honest question. Why is it I am hearing how midrange is going to take over in a world where Tempo, Combo and Prison Control decks all exist?

Because Miracles bashers over the years have convinced (some) people that Terminus was the only thing standing in the way of a return to the "glory days" of Maverick Summer.

Not just midrange, some people are actually asking about Zoo being viable again!

I think Legacy will be fine.

[Claymore]

Wait, seriously?

Why? I mean I know Miracles is 'oppressive' but it's never been an issue for anyone I know, we kind of just accept it's good and deal with it.

This was made by a guy with an Eldrazi flair, so estimated to be new to the format.

I think that's the mentality that's been driven into everyone lately, where the oppressiveness is just assumed and you have to build around it. Easy to see that removing Miracles leaves players wildly confused and they're led to believe that there will be no more control ever again.

[Megadeus]

This was made by a guy with an Eldrazi flair, so estimated to be new to the format.

I think that's the mentality that's been driven into everyone lately, where the oppressiveness is just assumed and you have to build around it. Easy to see that removing Miracles leaves players wildly confused and they're led to believe that there will be no more control ever again.

Control is dead. There is no more wrath that I ever have to play around and counter spells dont exist and neither does snapcaster mage and swords its all dead now thanks wotc brhejehfhoedosfsaadsa

[Crimhead]

To be fair, before Miracles hit big, Landstill was struggling to keep up in the post Delver world (as was Pox, Enchantress, and Stax). Control was mostly mitigated to Stoneblade and Thopter decks, which were more aggressive than what we were used to seeing called control. This led to a sentiment among old scholl control players that hard control, like pure aggro, had become a relic of MTG's past.

Miracles was a return to old school hard control that are more dedicated to defense.

We might or might not see another deck so dedicated to defense that it has but a slim possibility of closing a game out early. We've had worse metas for control, so I'm sure Legacy will still be fantastic.

[CptHaddock]

To be fair, before Miracles hit big, Landstill was struggling to keep up in the post Delver world (as was Pox, Enchantress, and Stax). Control was mostly mitigated to Stoneblade and Thopter decks, which were more aggressive than what we were used to seeing called control. This led to a sentiment among old scholl control players that hard control, like pure aggro, had become a relic of MTG's past.

Miracles was a return to old school hard control that are more dedicated to defense.

We might or might not see another deck so dedicated to defense that it has but a slim possibility of closing a game out early. We've had worse metas for control, so I'm sure Legacy will still be fantastic.

Thopters and SFMs are more aggressive than going mentor into, circlejerk with 2 tops, kill you? Or are we saying that Thopters/SFM are more aggressive than going EoT make 32 power of flying angels, kill you?

[Crimhead]

Thopters and SFMs are more aggressive than going mentor into, circlejerk with 2 tops, kill you? Or are we saying that Thopters/SFM are more aggressive than going EoT make 32 power of flying angels, kill you?

I remember Thopters (along with a minimal disruption) trying to race my (creature-less) Burn deck. Not successfully, but they gave it the college try, and that takes some serious capacity for aggression.
Playing Lands - believe me that Esper Blade puts up far more pressure than EtA Miracles, or even Mentor Miracles. Not even close

Mentor Miracles was also more aggressive than the other builds, but still less so than Blade.

Control is dead. There is no more wrath that I ever have to play around and counter spells dont exist and neither does snapcaster mage and swords its all dead now thanks wotc brhejehfhoedosfsaadsa

That's kind of like saying aggro is alive and well because we still get rushed by cards like Delver, Gurmag, Blighted Agent, Goyf, and Ichorids. Those are aggressive cards!

Compared to the old days, aggressive decks run more control, and controlling decks run more threats. Fair decks are more well-rounded and balanced with their aggressive and controlling elements.

[HSCK]

I remember Thopters (along with a minimal disruption) trying to race my (creature-less) Burn deck. Not successfully, but they gave it the college try, and that takes some serious capacity for aggression.
Playing Lands - believe me that Esper Blade puts up far more pressure than EtA Miracles, or even Mentor Miracles. Not even close

Mentor Miracles was also more aggressive than the other builds, but still less so than Blade.



That's kind of like saying aggro is alive and well because we still get rushed by cards like Delver, Gurmag, Blighted Agent, Goyf, and Ichorids. Those are aggressive cards!

Compared to the old days, aggressive decks run more control, and controlling decks run more threats. Fair decks are more well-rounded and balanced with their aggressive and controlling elements.

This is the worst logic imaginable for running a format. "Decks have to have less than X creatures and not be able to kill before turn X in order for it to be considered a control deck and it must appear in the format."

[Ronald Deuce]

Honest question. Why is it I am hearing how midrange is going to take over in a world where Tempo, Combo and Prison Control decks all exist? I mean, if I thought a field was going to be Delver, Lands, ANT and SnT, I don't think I am showing up with Jund, BUG or 4Colour.

I think the fans of divine topdecking are still reeling. There's a strong undercurrent in the thread of "I want to play control that doesn't also play conventional creature-based strategies," and that now that Miracles is gone, they're assuming the sky is falling and we're turning into Modern. Seems pretty implausible to me, especially because strategies relying more on higher-costed cards were always naturally good at breaking through CounterTop.

I agree that we need to wait and see; this is Day 2, after all. I have a sneaking suspicion that, aside from a few decks' resurgence (High Tide, perhaps), things won't really change all that much for most decks. Something will rise to the top, but I doubt it'll take over the format the way Miracles did. I don't know enough to comment with authority, but I have a feeling that whatever people think Miracles preyed upon to an inordinate degree probably wasn't going to dump on the format, anyway.

I'm also interested to see whether Miracles pilots make structural changes and keep the deck going or drop the whole thing like a burning skunk covered in tacks.

[Crimhead]

This is the worst logic imaginable for running a format.

You got me all wrong.

I'm not talking about how to run a format. I'm talking about recognising distinct play-styles.

I believe representation from a wide range of playstyles is very good for a format in (and should be a factor in format management). But having every style viable is obviously an unreasonably tall order.

Right now I'm, just trying to get people to admit that there is a difference between hard control and midrange control!

Everyone understands that Delver decks are too heavy on disruption to be considered pure aggro. But for some reason not everybody accepts that Goyf.dec or SFM.dec could possibly be too heavy on threats to be considered pure control.

There's a strong undercurrent in the thread of "I want to play control that doesn't also play conventional creature-based strategies," and that now that Miracles is gone, they're assuming the sky is falling and we're turning into Modern.

Thank you for acknowledging this distinction!

Such control decks were a dying breed in the time between Delver/Maverick and the rise of Miracles. So "grognard" control freaks have legitimate reason for concern.

Me, I like my Lands deck - usually RUG (the hard control variety).
I want to play against "control that doesn't also play conventional creature-based strategies" because midrange/control decks are basically just (clunkier) aggro/midrange decks the moment they sit down across from me. I like to have the diversity of the occasional more real control match between two more strictly defensive decks. Hopefully Such a deck can find a niche in our meta. :)

In the meantime, I plan to enjoy crushing the creature decks, smoke breaks after losing to combo, and the general thrill of the "wild west" roller-coaster as the meta figures itself out.

[CutthroatCasual]

I have a feeling that whatever people think Miracles preyed upon to an inordinate degree probably wasn't going to dump on the format, anyway.

This right here is what's going to happen. Maverick will try to make a comeback and be beat, Zoo still sucks, Elves might actually become a thing again (though according to Julian, he was already improving his winrate against Miracles so I don't know what else was keeping the deck down because you're not going to face 9 Miracles decks over the course of a tournament meaning that you can't blame the decks non-success on Miracles alone).

I'm also interested to see whether Miracles pilots make structural changes and keep the deck going or drop the whole thing like a burning skunk covered in tacks.

If anything, people will start playing Esper (or UWr) Mentor to much, much less success.

[Lemnear]

Because Miracles bashers over the years have convinced (some) people that Terminus was the only thing standing in the way of a return to the "glory days" of Maverick Summer.

[Crimhead]

Elves might actually become a thing again (though according to Julian, he was already improving his winrate against Miracles so I don't know what else was keeping the deck down because you're not going to face 9 Miracles decks over the course of a tournament meaning that you can't blame the decks non-success on Miracles alone).

I think he also said that Elves has made some awkward inclusions to deal with the Miracles match, and that now the deck can better focus on what it does well.

[Crimhead]

meme]

Two things at play here:

1. Some people believe controll-ish midrange will be the go-to control decks in the post SDT meta.
2. Some people believe that with Miracles and Terminus gone the format will somehow be good for Maverick, Jund, Junk, and all sorts of other obsolete non-blue midrange and aggro decks.

(1) Might well be true, but it by no means indicates our format will be flooded with midrange.
(2) Is absurd IMO, but there seem to be some very optimistic non-blue creature deck lovers out there in for a rude awakening.

If you have another idea why (some) people are predicting so much midrange I'd love to hear.

[Dice_Box]

I think the fans of divine topdecking are still reeling. There's a strong undercurrent in the thread of "I want to play control that doesn't also play conventional creature-based strategies," and that now that Miracles is gone, they're assuming the sky is falling and we're turning into Modern. Seems pretty implausible to me, especially because strategies relying more on higher-costed cards were always naturally good at breaking through Countertop.

I can understand that. I mean if Lands suddenly became this dominant deck who could not be stopped and Diamond/Exploration suddenly hit the chopping block, I would feel upset too. But I wouldn't seek to make up shit about how the format would look. I am not going to say it's all going to be 4 colour decks and 12 post because Lands took a bullet.

I also have had a very odd path though Magic since I returned. I played nothing but Goblins before I left, I came back as the deck was dying and had to face both that fact and my own immaturity (personally, not just on the format) to come to a better place personally and in Legacy. I branched out and found that for all my years of playing Aggro, Prison was actually my true love. It took a long time to understand that and to then find my way though the options, seeking out the deck I now play. I am invested and I would not like to, after walking that path, suddenly see my home torn down. This just happened to others.

Yesterday I reacted on euphoria, but that has passed. Now the situation is one of forward thinking. "What will happen, why will it happen?" The cold truth is that no one of us really has the answer, but we have all been in this pool long enough to have a guess. Some of us haven't ever known the format without Miracles, some of us remember it, but that time was so long ago and so many printings ago that we are all in this together now. Waiting and guessing, all without a true knowledge of tomorrow.

That quote of mine, the one in your signature, I stand by it. This format, if you really want to win you have to play Blue. I play Land's yes, but I have been doing so for years now. I have lent the deck out to others and cringed as I watched them play. Sometimes having to walk away from the table before I hit them over the back of the head. But that said we have taken a step towards perhaps a format whereby Blue is a little less necessary, a little less prominent. Perhaps a new start at something else.

The fun part of all this is that tomorrow, if you really love this format, you will all find something else to love. You have lost a deck, but not the options, the knowledge, the skills and the power to still play in this format. Blade control may not suit you but there are other paths to walk. I don't know what will suit everyone but this is Legacy, options are kind of the thing we never have lacked. Even if good matchup are sometimes a thing we do.

[ahg113]

I am late to the party. But I just wanted to add a "Fuck You Wizards" for knee-capping some of the only decent non-blue card selection out there, (HERE I COME SCROLL RACK!). 1st world problems, #nobodyplaysTeamItalia, blah blah blah.

But yeah, a bad decision is better than the apathy they had previously shown. So movement it is! Whether or not it is progress, debatable.

But seriously- they identified the real culprit, Counterbalance. Should've just nuked that card, and then leave well enough alone otherwise.

[Crimhead]

That quote of mine, the one in your signature, I stand by it. This format, if you really want to win you have to play Blue.

I've been telling you to get on the RUG lands train for years.

[Claymore]

I think that's what will happen; deck building will relax and people won't have to metagame their decks against Miracles. Take a look at the likes of Maverick, Dark Depths, Junk, Zoo, (most of the Tier 2 shit I play) basically any older you page open will ask "what's the plan for Miracles?" I don't really see that for any other deck except Eldrazi and DnT. I don't play Delver, but a quick look in Grixis and Shardless shows similar trends.

Here's a wild thought that I'm just going to throw out there - After getting Terminus'd so much by Miracles, I kind of thought that Dryad Arbor might be good in the deck since it's an easy way to get a creature onto the battlefield (also gets through Countertop lock too)...and it also combos well with Ghor-Clan to deal a bunch of damage to an opponent or a Jace after a Terminus. Several games where I got my Miracles opponent to 3-4 life and a Dryad Arbor would have just finished them off. It's a little crazy, I know.

Finally more recent zoo decks have been playing PWs main deck to give some game against Miracles, or splashing back for abrupt decay. Hope that helps.

It's awkward because I think you want to main deck Thalia right now, and with T4 Bloodbraid and Thalia out you need 5 mana for any non creature you hit off her. But both are kind of key cards to handling Miracles so it's kind of necessary imo.

I would always plan to play Miracles which means packing Libraries and Truths but the colors offer such a large selection of cards and effects.

The tower was to ensure that late game against Miracles, they could not just terminus/swords everything away but I also have no qualms to cutting it.

I've been wracking my brain for a 15th SB card that has high impact against miracles while also having some game against the other fair decks (ie garruk/bitterblossom/etc)- any thoughts?

I struggle a lot vs miracles... I can sometimes steal a game1 here and there but overall I haven't won a match against them. I have a legacy challenge this weekend on modo and if I can solve the miracles matchup by then I'll play high tide!

[...] I have been really happy with my list overall, it's just miracles that is a big issue.

I'm currently struggling to decide between the Ballista/Stronghold sideboard and the Rite/Boseju sideboard, which has been explored in the last few pages. My main priority is beating Miracles, as I'm finding that D&T is closer to even.

Oh and a relevant one for Top itself:

Top is killing me lately, so i added a Null Rod (along with Needle) in the board to help, so this sideboard is a little different than all the 5-0's i have on Goldfish. Whenever i lose to Miracles, it is definitely due to Top, the card is absurd.

[Dice_Box]

I've been telling you to get on the RUG lands train for years.

Well, I'm there now.

[JDK]

Because to a few Miracles=Control and Control=Miracles. Miracles is not longer a deck, which means there will never be control ever again, ever. Once you believe that then they can give you the entire rabbit hole tour.

Because Miracles bashers over the years have convinced (some) people that Terminus was the only thing standing in the way of a return to the "glory days" of Maverick Summer.

Which is funny, considering the salty ones are shouting "have fun with your midrange festival"