View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #20861
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    @iatee: I agree and in fact I wrote that in the first response to the question asked and also verified that it was the same argument that Wizards used: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1060431

    I don't think people are necessarily interested in a good answer, they are more interested in a) disserting bad arguments for the sake of a discussion (I can sympathize with this, I like it too), and b) I think people tend to neglect that the bannings are based on pragmatism and not some potential rules which they would love to see (and discuss). Sorry if I'm all wrong and missing key aspects here, I can't bring myself to read all the page-long arguments on what seems to me like irrelevant discussion [edit: I try to read most of it though].

  2. #20862
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I think you make some good points, in that Probe was probably the 3rd most powerful cantrip in legacy, and only currently abusable by a few shells. But you overreach when you say it's just 'because people just don't like it' - or at least you refuse to acknowledge that they don't like it for pretty good reasons. Perfect information makes Magic less interesting and less challenging. I always found Probe more frustrating out of Pyromancer or UR Delver than Storm, because those decks aren't built in a way that they *needed* perfect information to do their thing. But a certain amount of the time they just got it for 0 mana, with value attached, and the game that ensued was less interesting since my opponent got to play color by numbers Magic. And while Probe was only enabling a few tier 1 decks when it got banned, the card's awful design ensures that it would enable broken stuff in the future.

    Overall:

    1. Legacy is a more interesting and challenging format with the card gone.
    2. Many people found the card super annoying

    You can claim people are irrational for #2, and maybe they are, but who cares, this is a forum where adults pay thousands of dollars to play with cardboard dragons, any sort of definition of rationality is a bit fuzzy in that context.

    But if you disagree with #1 - which is itself a great case for the banning - then the burden is on you to explain why Magic is better in any sense with Probe around.
    Probe enabled a lot of fun and interesting mechanics. For example, the new Archlight Pheonix card. You look at it from the lens of it enabling broken stuff. I look at it as a card that enabled some really interesting cards. Whether that be cards like Thing in the Ice, Bedlam Reveler, Monastery Mentor, or whatever. Obviously it paired well with Storm and Delver, but there are other decks that could have benefited from it as well.

    From the perspective of someone wanting to play fairer games of magic, smashing creatures into other creatures, sure. Gitaxian Probe likely offered nothing of value to you and is something you're glad to see gone. But from the perspective of brewing future decks, it's sad to see the card go.

    Maybe Probe was too good and they banned it before it was able to become degenerate and break the format. But I definitely think they should have waited a bit longer to pull the trigger on it, as opposed to banning it at the same time as Deathrite Shaman.

    There are other clearly more powerful cards than Gitaxian Probe that could have been hit. By the logic of it being banned in Modern and restricted in Vintage, Ponder also meets that metric. Why did they not ban Ponder instead? I'm pretty sure Ponder had twice the meta penetration that Probe had.
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  3. #20863
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    From the perspective of someone wanting to play fairer games of magic, smashing creatures into other creatures, sure. Gitaxian Probe likely offered nothing of value to you and is something you're glad to see gone. But from the perspective of brewing future decks, it's sad to see the card go.
    I'm not sure if this is really the case, the first argument WotC used to motivate the ban was that it was a part of Grixis Delver. That is a deck that used Gitaxian Probe together with creatures to smash creatures into creatures in very fair games of magic. There is nothing unfair in that deck, except for arguably relatively low CMC's of spells (that seems a bit far-fetched though).

  4. #20864
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    I'm not sure if this is really the case, the first argument WotC used to motivate the ban was that it was a part of Grixis Delver. That is a deck that used Gitaxian Probe together with creatures to smash creatures into creatures in very fair games of magic. There is nothing unfair in that deck, except for arguably relatively low CMC's of spells (that seems a bit far-fetched though).
    I wasn't referencing WotC's motivation or reasoning, I was responding to a Death and Taxes player that disliked Probe because they felt that it enabled broken strategies. The interaction with Young Pyromancer is precisely the type of interactions that made the card fun and interesting to me. I quite enjoyed pairing it with Monastery Mentor and Cabal Therapy, myself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    Probe enabled a lot of fun and interesting mechanics. For example, the new Archlight Pheonix card. You look at it from the lens of it enabling broken stuff. I look at it as a card that enabled some really interesting cards. Whether that be cards like Thing in the Ice, Bedlam Reveler, Monastery Mentor, or whatever. Obviously it paired well with Storm and Delver, but there are other decks that could have benefited from it as well.

    From the perspective of someone wanting to play fairer games of magic, smashing creatures into other creatures, sure. Gitaxian Probe likely offered nothing of value to you and is something you're glad to see gone. But from the perspective of brewing future decks, it's sad to see the card go.

    Maybe Probe was too good and they banned it before it was able to become degenerate and break the format. But I definitely think they should have waited a bit longer to pull the trigger on it, as opposed to banning it at the same time as Deathrite Shaman.

    There are other clearly more powerful cards than Gitaxian Probe that could have been hit. By the logic of it being banned in Modern and restricted in Vintage, Ponder also meets that metric. Why did they not ban Ponder instead? I'm pretty sure Ponder had twice the meta penetration that Probe had.
    "A free spell...might go well...in decks that want you to cast lots of spells" is not actually super interesting. If you really want to brew, you should pray to WotC for more bans, not fewer - brewing sucks in legacy because tier 1 decks have such a leg up on the rest of the format.

    They didn't ban Ponder because people mostly like Ponder! Not everyone, but a pretty good chunk of the player base thinks that that card thinks that, despite its power level, it makes the game more interesting. If one day a majority of the legacy player base turns on Ponder and Brainstorm and starts complaining, then they'll ban Ponder and Brainstorm. If enough people decide they hate losing to turn 1 Blood Moon, maybe one day they'll ban Blood Moon. These cards don't have some moral right to exist, they are part of a format that Wizards is trying to manage to be at once fun, interesting and competitive. They make their decisions accordingly.

    The clearest case that the Probe ban was a fantastic decision: until reading this thread I hadn't seen a single person complain about it and Magic players complain about everything.

  6. #20866
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    "A free spell...might go well...in decks that want you to cast lots of spells" is not actually super interesting. If you really want to brew, you should pray to WotC for more bans, not fewer - brewing sucks in legacy because tier 1 decks have such a leg up on the rest of the format.

    They didn't ban Ponder because people mostly like Ponder! Not everyone, but a pretty good chunk of the player base thinks that that card thinks that, despite its power level, it makes the game more interesting. If one day a majority of the legacy player base turns on Ponder and Brainstorm and starts complaining, then they'll ban Ponder and Brainstorm. If enough people decide they hate losing to turn 1 Blood Moon, maybe one day they'll ban Blood Moon. These cards don't have some moral right to exist, they are part of a format that Wizards is trying to manage to be at once fun, interesting and competitive. They make their decisions accordingly.

    The clearest case that the Probe ban was a fantastic decision: until reading this thread I hadn't seen a single person complain about it and Magic players complain about everything.
    Brewing doesn't suck in Legacy. I brew all the time and do well with my brews. Other people brew and do well with theirs too. There have been several new and interesting brews that have done well lately. The most notable is probably Slow Depths, but there are certainly others. Just because most people suck at brewing doesn't mean the format is solved. Probe was definitely not a card holding the ability to brew new decks back. Banning does not inherently open up more ability to brew. Weakening the power level of the format may make some weaker cards more playable, but people will just switch to the next best thing and go back to complaining about how bad the format is to brew in. This complaint is perennial and will always exist in Eternal formats due to their nature and the advent of the internet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  7. #20867

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I think you make some good points, in that Probe was probably the 3rd most powerful cantrip in legacy, and only currently abusable by a few shells.
    Thank you for acknowledging it.

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    Perfect information makes Magic less interesting and less challenging. But a certain amount of the time they just got it for 0 mana, with value attached, and the game that ensued was less interesting since my opponent got to play color by numbers Magic.

    1. Legacy is a more interesting and challenging format with the card gone.
    I think this is not as clear cut as you're saying.

    For one, everyone acts like Probe just lets you know your opponent's hand at all times - as though it's Telepathy. It's not. It lets you see their hand one time - as soon as they draw a card or cantrip or whatever, their hand is different. You still have to time Probe appropriately to get the maximum value from it.

    Moreover, do you keep this hand, game 1?

    Gitaxian Probe
    Gitaxian Probe
    Dark Ritual
    Dark Ritual
    Cabal Ritual
    Lion's Eye Diamond
    Infernal Tutor

    If you hit an initial mana source, your opponent is dead, assuming they have no free interaction. If you don't, maybe you're a goldfish. There are versions of this hand that could ad nauseam with no mana floating if you hit a land, but then you're starting from 16, maybe 15 life if it were a fetch, but it might still be correct to go for it.

    It's possible to concoct a similar hand for Grixis Delver. These scenarios happen at least as often as it being relevant to your land drop to have Probed first.

    I get that it sucks sometimes to feel like, "man, my hand is all plains, forests, and cards they cast, and now my opponent knows the jig is up," but that's not an indictment of Probe. The Probe player still has to evaluate threats correctly and play the rest of the game. If the rest of their hand is bricks or they deploy it badly, it doesn't matter that they knew your hand. I agree that knowledge as powerful, but I think people oversell the leverage one Peek gives you.

    The exception might be things like Storm, where knowing that you can go for it with certainty is really nice, but again, discard lets you do that and lets you take a card to boot (which you're likely to be deploying closer to the fundamental turn, rather than on turn zero, which everyone seems to be sore about).

    I honestly feel like the Probe banning just makes Storm feel worse to play, even though its metagame position is similar pre- and post banning. It feels like how I would imagine banning Horizon Canopy would feel for fair deck players - didn't fix a problem, just makes existing decks less enjoyable.

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    1. Legacy is a more interesting and challenging format with the card gone.

    But if you disagree with #1 - which is itself a great case for the banning - then the burden is on you to explain why Magic is better in any sense with Probe around.
    As for the "interesting" part, I actually don't think it is a reasonable banning criterion. If it were, things like TNN, Chalice, and Griselbrand should've been banned long ago (and that's just cards with widespread agreement - I personally think Thalia is boring as hell, but it doesn't mean it should be banned).

    That being said, if you want to know why I think it's more interesting with Probe around, Hanni already hit on a bunch of points, but for me:

    I love playing with/seeing cards that do things outside of the normal box. I love stuff like Storm and Dredge, stuff outside the normal, "play a dude, play some removal on their dude, attack" paradigm that suffuses formats like Standard and Limited. I like Limited too, but I don't want my Legacy games to be like that.

    Also, I like cards that convert resources into other resources - in this case, life into cards. Engine decks are some of my favorites to play.

    Also, I like being able to do a lot of things in a turn, and get value incidentally - the extra pyromancer token, the extra storm count, the draws into an empty hand with Past in Flames - all of that stuff is SWEET. Things like Brainstorm to put a tutor on top so that you can use probe and an LED to make mana to cast the tutor - those interactions make me excited to play, and "blocking" doesn't. I know I'm in the minority, which is why they always ban the stuff I like, but I wish they'd just let it be sometimes.

    We already have plenty of formats where only fair stuff is good, let us do cool things in Legacy.

    That's another reason why I hate the, "it's banned in other formats" argument - I want my formats to be as different as possible, why would we divide them otherwise?

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    And while Probe was only enabling a few tier 1 decks when it got banned, the card's awful design ensures that it would enable broken stuff in the future.
    So ban it then? Why ban it now, when it currently isn't?

    Now that it's on the list, the odds we get it back are miniscule. That's why I tend to advocate against bans - they so rarely get reversed, so we need to make sure they're actually reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    You can claim people are irrational for #2, and maybe they are, but who cares, this is a forum where adults pay thousands of dollars to play with cardboard dragons, any sort of definition of rationality is a bit fuzzy in that context.
    This is also a great point, and why I do have to concede that, if literally everybody but me hates Probe, it's worth it to ban it. Again, not everyone is as honest as you are about it being a gut reaction rather than a rational one.

  8. #20868
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    As for the "interesting" part, I actually don't think it is a reasonable banning criterion. If it were, things like TNN, Chalice, and Griselbrand should've been banned long ago (and that's just cards with widespread agreement - I personally think Thalia is boring as hell, but it doesn't mean it should be banned).
    TNN, Chalice and Griselbrand should all be banned and all conceivably could be one day. I think Griselbrand is probably the only one where the fanboys might kick up a stink. Most people would be happy to play a format where they didn't have to think about turn 1 Chalice or Griselbrand.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    Now that it's on the list, the odds we get it back are miniscule. That's why I tend to advocate against bans - they so rarely get reversed, so we need to make sure they're actually reasonable.
    Who cares? We have 15k cards to play with, there are like 50 that they said oops, no, maybe life would be better without these guys. This is not a poor child sent to jail for life.

  9. #20869

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    TNN, Chalice and Griselbrand should all be banned and all conceivably could be one day. I think Griselbrand is probably the only one where the fanboys might kick up a stink. Most people would be happy to play a format where they didn't have to think about turn 1 Chalice or Griselbrand.

    Who cares? We have 15k cards to play with, there are like 50 that they said oops, no, maybe life would be better without these guys. This is not a poor child sent to jail for life.
    I actually think Stompy players would riot - for a lot of people, the only thing standing between us and utter cantrip domination is a painfully boring artifact lockpiece. They might not even be 100% wrong, I just think chalice is way less fun.

    15k cards, sure, but none of them do what the banned ones do. LED is only one card, but banning it would get rid of a bunch of different decks. The same is true of Wasteland, or Loam, or whatever. 1 card versus 15k is a facile argument - the vast majority of those cards are irrelevant.

  10. #20870
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The point isn't that there are 15k legacy-worthy cards, the point is that as a % of magic cards printed, the number that have been deemed too powerful/disruptive/whatever for the legacy format is a minuscule fraction.

    If we all collectively forget that Wizards screwed up one time and printed a cantrip with Phyrexian mana, there's not some tragedy occurring here, regardless of how powerful the card is today or in the future.

  11. #20871

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    The point isn't that there are 15k legacy-worthy cards, the point is that as a % of magic cards printed, the number that have been deemed too powerful/disruptive/whatever for the legacy format is a minuscule fraction.

    If we all collectively forget that Wizards screwed up one time and printed a cantrip with Phyrexian mana, there's not some tragedy occurring here, regardless of how powerful the card is today or in the future.
    I mean, tell that to all the people who want to play Survival, right? The percentage of cards banned doesn't matter, if only one does the thing you want to be doing.

    What if the next card they decide to get rid of is Aether Vial?

    ("You should have to pay mana for your creatures! They weren't designed to have Flash! It's unfair that it also makes them uncounterable! Any deck can play this card, because it's colorless and only costs one mana! You can activate it, and your opponent doesn't even get to know what you're putting in, or even if you have something TO put in, until it resolves!" Don't these arguments sound ridiculous? That's what the anti-Probe arguments sound like to someone who has actually played the card.)

    I don't play Vial, but I understand that banning it would be a tragedy for plenty of Legacy players who do, because it represents a unique strategic approach that they enjoy. Just because I can "forget" that they printed an uncommon artifact that lets people cheat on mana/timing/counterability rules doesn't mean everyone could or would want to.

  12. #20872
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I feel like you guys keep trying to bring up DnT examples as if I have some special irrational feelings reserved for the deck I play. But...I don't. If DnT were the best deck in legacy for an extended period of time, it would totally be justifiable to nerf it.

    There are some reasons that DnT will not be the best deck in legacy anytime soon:

    1. Aether Vial is a broken magic card and abstractly the most bannable DnT card. If you could start with it in your opening hand every game, DnT would be the best deck in legacy. The power is constrained by the fact that you can only play 4, but and to abuse it you have to design your whole deck around it. Everyone hates playing against DnT's Vial hands, but a lot of people love playing against DnT's non-Vial hands.
    2. DnT is incredibly easy to hate out of the format. A Jund/Pile style maindeck filled with creature removal is always going to be favored, and if those aren't around, the targeted sideboard cards for DnT are some of the most powerful in legacy.

    But Wizards like printing hatebears. And maybe they'll at some point mess up and print one that is far too powerful, one that ensures that DnT is the best deck in legacy, a 1 mana non-legendary Thalia, say. And at that point I won't say "Wizards gave me this gift and they will have to pry it from my cold dead hand.' I will say 'This card is stupid, they should ban it.'

  13. #20873

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I feel like you guys keep trying to bring up DnT examples as if I have some special irrational feelings reserved for the deck I play. But...I don't. If DnT were the best deck in legacy for an extended period of time, it would totally be justifiable to nerf it.

    There are some reasons that DnT will not be the best deck in legacy anytime soon:

    1. Aether Vial is a broken magic card and abstractly the most bannable DnT card. If you could start with it in your opening hand every game, DnT would be the best deck in legacy. The power is constrained by the fact that you can only play 4, but and to abuse it you have to design your whole deck around it. Everyone hates playing against DnT's Vial hands, but a lot of people love playing against DnT's non-Vial hands.
    2. DnT is incredibly easy to hate out of the format. A Jund/Pile style maindeck filled with creature removal is always going to be favored, and if those aren't around, the targeted sideboard cards for DnT are some of the most powerful in legacy.

    But Wizards like printing hatebears. And maybe they'll at some point mess up and print one that is far too powerful, one that ensures that DnT is the best deck in legacy, a 1 mana non-legendary Thalia, say. And at that point I won't say "Wizards gave me this gift and they will have to pry it from my cold dead hand.' I will say 'This card is stupid, they should ban it.'
    I don't think you have an irrational attachment to it, I just want to debate from a place that is relatable to you - you don't care about cards like Probe, so the philosophy of "just roll with it, who cares if a card or two gets banned" has no consequences for you. Whereas, if the card were one that you cared about or liked, maybe you would be less willing to say, "easy come easy go, people don't like the card, I say good riddance," and instead hold them to a higher standard when they decide to ban a card.

    I don't think Vial is bannable or DnT too good; that's the point. Probe wasn't bannable or too good either. When we let them get away with, "well, some people don't really like it, and it might be broken later, so we're going to get rid of it" as an explanation, we risk that happening to plenty of other cards, and next time, it might be the one you like.

    Plus, again, lots of people who hate Probe would see a 1-mana nonlegendary Thalia and think, "FINALLY some fucking justice for nonblue!!" Not everyone has the same approach as you, and since we're saying with Probe that the biggest chunk should get what it wants, it might even get to stay. I feel like there's greater odds of that happening than Wizards ever printing another relevant card for Storm, or that Probe was somehow going to break the format in the future.

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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    I don't think you have an irrational attachment to it, I just want to debate from a place that is relatable to you - you don't care about cards like Probe, so the philosophy of "just roll with it, who cares if a card or two gets banned" has no consequences for you. Whereas, if the card were one that you cared about or liked, maybe you would be less willing to say, "easy come easy go, people don't like the card, I say good riddance," and instead hold them to a higher standard when they decide to ban a card.

    I don't think Vial is bannable or DnT too good; that's the point. Probe wasn't bannable or too good either. When we let them get away with, "well, some people don't really like it, and it might be broken later, so we're going to get rid of it" as an explanation, we risk that happening to plenty of other cards, and next time, it might be the one you like.

    Plus, again, lots of people who hate Probe would see a 1-mana nonlegendary Thalia and think, "FINALLY some fucking justice for nonblue!!" Not everyone has the same approach as you, and since we're saying with Probe that the biggest chunk should get what it wants, it might even get to stay. I feel like there's greater odds of that happening than Wizards ever printing another relevant card for Storm, or that Probe was somehow going to break the format in the future.
    I care about legacy being an interesting and dynamic format more than I care about the legality of the card Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. I don't just 'not care' about Probe, I think the card led to poor gameplay and was actively bad for the format. There are lots of other cards that fit that criteria, Chalice being on top of the list.

    'Probe wasn't bannable' is not much of a statement. By Wizards' criteria of banning, it was bannable, and that's the only real definition of bannable. Reflector Mage does not feel like a particularly broken card, or a card that is too strong for Standard, but in the interests of creating a more enjoyable and competitive standard environment, Wizards decided that Reflector Mage was a bannable card, ergo Reflector Mage is a bannable card. We don't 'let them get away with' adding or subtracting cards to Magic formats, that's what Wizards does. They make mistakes frequently - a Phyrexian mana cantrip was obviously a design mistake (Phyrexian mana in general was) and it's easier for them to fix their mistakes when the community widely agrees that the card was a design mistake. In the case of Probe, the community at large does agree.

  15. #20875

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by talpa View Post
    If this kind of reasoning was true, then since not every deck has use and space for brainstorm, the card must have its drawbacks. Get this brainstorm haters! We have the final demonstration you should shut up.
    A card can have drawbacks and be bannable. Not every deck has use or space for Gitaxian Probe or Brainstorm, and both cards do have drawbacks. Acknowledging that one or both has drawbacks is not inconsistent with thinking that one or both should be banned.

    This arose because people were talking about the freeness of Gitaxian Probe. It’s fair to say that it’s free of mana cost but not that it’s free of cost or drawback.

    For sure, what is flawed is your rhetorical way of arguing: you say that each of Gitaxian Probe strong point isn't enough by itself to warrant a ban.
    I didn’t say anything about whether Gitaxian Probe should be banned. Are you quoting the right post?

    What I said is that merely listing the strong points of a card does not complete the argument for why it should be banned. After all, there are many good cards in Legacy, and the Ship of Theseus concept applies to every one of them.

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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I agree with those that say Probe was bad for the format and that ultimately was the biggest strike against it. I've only considered selling out of the format twice since I started playing Legacy in 2011. Once when Treasure Cruise and Dig were at their peak and there was 0 reason to not be playing blue, and after the top ban but before DRS and Probe when there felt like there was 0 reason to not be playing blue to me. I was a Deathrite player for a long time. One of my Open Top 8's was with the card and the other was with Probe in my deck, but it was great to see both of those cards go. They completely were ruining the format. Unfortunately at this point prices have ruined the format. Our once budding 20+ man legacy weekly events have turned into tonight's turnout of 4. Keep in mind I live in one of the largest cities in the southeastern US. This format is dying and quickly unfortunately
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    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  17. #20877
    plays Mountains
    Ace/Homebrew's Avatar
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The format was doomed the moment nedleeds got banned...

  18. #20878
    The green Ancestral
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    Weakening the power level of the format may make some weaker cards more playable, but people will just switch to the next best thing and go back to complaining about how bad the format is to brew in. This complaint is perennial and will always exist in Eternal formats due to their nature and the advent of the internet.
    I have to beg to differ here, Hanni. I don't recall people complaining about brewing in Legacy until maybe 2012 or 2013, and I think that correlates to the naturally increasing power level of the format. WOTC's main lever to control the format's power level is to ban cards, and WOTC mostly chose to be hands-off with Legacy until the DRS and Probe ban. I, too, enjoy brewing in Legacy and feel it can be done, but I concede the point that it's harder to do so now than it was in the past.

  19. #20879
    Land Destruction Enthusiast
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew View Post
    The format was doomed the moment nedleeds got banned...
    Unfortunately he is fed up with the format and doesn't play either. RIP Legacy. Here's to hoping that proxies attract some new people
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  20. #20880
    Etherium is limited. Innovation is not.
    Hanni's Avatar
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ESG View Post
    I have to beg to differ here, Hanni. I don't recall people complaining about brewing in Legacy until maybe 2012 or 2013, and I think that correlates to the naturally increasing power level of the format. WOTC's main lever to control the format's power level is to ban cards, and WOTC mostly chose to be hands-off with Legacy until the DRS and Probe ban. I, too, enjoy brewing in Legacy and feel it can be done, but I concede the point that it's harder to do so now than it was in the past.
    I'm pretty sure this had more to do with the increase in popularity and format support by WotC and outfits like SCG than anything related to power level. More event coverage started happening, more pros started playing Legacy, and boom, everything started becoming more streamlined.
    Sligh
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