View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #22181
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    It would be cool to see a Council's Judgment type of templating on a green creature, maybe like this:

    Disciple of Thrun 1GG
    Hexproof
    G: Regenerate Disciple of Thrun
    Will of the Council: at the beginning of your upkeep, starting with you each player votes for a non-land permanent. That permanent loses all abilities until the beginning of your next upkeep.
    3/2

    This works not only for True-Name Nemesis but also Emrakul, Progenitus, and anything else with hexproof/shroud/protection. Stats aren't overblown, but that thing would definitely see play.
    Brainstorm Realist

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  2. #22182
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    For a green threat that stands up to TNN and doesn't look embarassing when facing Snapcaster Swords, merge Thrun, the last Troll and Questing Beast. Put it in the next commander product. Maybe make it cost GGGG. Sure, Questing Beast looks great for standard and it appears to be relevant for legacy but to let green actually have a good creature on the level of TNN, that could be what we need. Wotc, make us green mages proud to be green mages again!.
    GGGG
    Aggressively Non-Legendary Creature - Whatever
    (A deck may have any number of Aggressively Non-Legendary Creatures with the same name)
    Can't be Countered, Can't be Blocked,
    Hexproof, Haste, Vigilance, Deathtouch
    Combat damage that would be dealt by creatures you control can't be prevented.
    Whenever ~ deals combat damage to an opponent, destroy target planeswalker that player controls.
    4/4

    I'd play it.
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  3. #22183
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    Well, it may not be as far away as you think, printing new cards is often discussed as an option to banning cards. I wouldn't be sad if TNN was banned. But that discussion doesn't lead very far.
    Plague Engineer constructively banned TNN - it isn't played nearly as much in Legacy since Modern Horizons.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    It would be cool to see a Council's Judgment type of templating on a green creature, maybe like this:

    Disciple of Thrun 1GG
    Hexproof
    G: Regenerate Disciple of Thrun
    Will of the Council: at the beginning of your upkeep, starting with you each player votes for a non-land permanent. That permanent loses all abilities until the beginning of your next upkeep.
    3/2

    This works not only for True-Name Nemesis but also Emrakul, Progenitus, and anything else with hexproof/shroud/protection. Stats aren't overblown, but that thing would definitely see play.
    Creature would eventually have to target itself if it was the only non-land permanent in play. You could add a regeneration shield for your turn.

    At GG1, it needs to be 3/4 or 4/3 or have some way to grow.
    "Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."

  4. #22184
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Wizard View Post
    Plague Engineer constructively banned TNN - it isn't played nearly as much in Legacy since Modern Horizons.
    Yes, I agree with this (or well, "banned" is a bit of an exaggeration, it still sees play). I still think it would be nice to have a green creature that looks nice next to TNN, even if black can now play a maindeckable answer to TNN.

    @Cire: I think that last ability made it just slightly too good but well whatever.

    @MrSafety: I could see playing that card too, nice ability making untouchable creatures touchable. It seems quite reasonable (may need to be bigger like water_wizard says), while my suggestion was probably a bit too pushed, although I'm not entirely sure it would push Maverick or Nic Fit over the top (it wouldn't), maybe it'd be too good in Elves.

  5. #22185
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    Yes, I agree with this (or well, "banned" is a bit of an exaggeration, it still sees play). I still think it would be nice to have a green creature that looks nice next to TNN, even if black can now play a maindeckable answer to TNN.

    @MrSafety: I could see playing that card too, nice ability making untouchable creatures touchable. It seems quite reasonable (may need to be bigger like water_wizard says), while my suggestion was probably a bit too pushed, although I'm not entirely sure it would push Maverick or Nic Fit over the top (it wouldn't), maybe it'd be too good in Elves.
    Yes, TNN still sees play, but it is no longer the 3-mana Progenitus that it once was.

    @MrSafety - maybe give it an effect like Shadowspear?
    "Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."

  6. #22186
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Wizard View Post
    Creature would eventually have to target itself if it was the only non-land permanent in play. You could add a regeneration shield for your turn.

    At GG1, it needs to be 3/4 or 4/3 or have some way to grow.
    I agree, it should be 3/4. I was using the Troll Ascetic template. I think what keeps Troll from playability is it doesn't have enough text; the regenerate + hexproof makes it decent in any mid-range green deck outside of legacy, give it a valid ability that wrecks the better creatures of the format (Arcanist, SFM, TNN, Emrakul, Griselbrand) and it becomes good.
    Brainstorm Realist

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  7. #22187

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Man, these cards are pretty shitty. I wish we had a thread for creating these shitty cards.

  8. #22188
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Man, these cards are pretty shitty. I wish we had a thread for creating these shitty cards.
    I look forward to the day every thread is a shitty custom complain about reserved list card thread!

    FourDogsinaHorseSuit 2
    Artifact Vehicle Horse ~
    When ~ enters the battlefield put four 2/2 black hound tokens with "This creature can't attack or defend" onto the battlefield.
    FourDogsinaHorseSuit's power and toughness is equal to the amount of islands each opponent controls.
    Crew - Four hounds (Tap four hounds: This Vehicle becomes an artifact creature until end of turn.)
    X/X
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    You sir are a ninja of fine quality.

  9. #22189

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    "Ban islands" is just 4 posts above you
    Well at least somebody's making serious suggestions.

  10. #22190
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    GGGG
    Aggressively Non-Legendary Creature - Whatever
    Can't be Countered, Can't be Blocked,
    Hexproof, Haste, Vigilance, Deathtouch
    Combat damage that would be dealt by creatures you control can't be prevented.
    Whenever ~ deals combat damage to an opponent, destroy target planeswalker that player controls.
    4/4
    Loses to any deck playing Lion's Eye Diamond, Dark Ritual or KarnSnaring Bridge. Seems balanced enough to print in Legacy Masters, not even joking.

    Giving green more powerful beaters that blue can't splash will help, but if it's still 10-90 vs ANT and Dredge and 0-100 vs Belcher, they have to ask themselves "why not play Delver instead?".

    A green TNN doesn't solve those problems. Here's a possible template.

    Green N Ent - GGG - Creature - Troll Beast
    ~ has protection from blue and black in all zones.
    All other creatures lose protection from ~.
    G: Regenerates
    4/3

    Beats TNN in combat. Beats discard, counters, black removal, Surgical, and even Slaughter Games. Dies to Plateau.
    But it still loses to Dark Ritual.
    Last edited by FTW; 02-07-2020 at 08:18 AM.

  11. #22191
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I play a lot of green decks since years, they absolutely do not beat up on blue decks. Miracles and grixis control variants are typically very hard, at least for the past five years or so. And green decks splashing white do relatively well vs storm decks, in my experience. Show and tell is tougher, at least since Omniscience got widely adopted. Anyway, I get the impression you don't run a lot of green decks? That's ok, just be careful making assumptions. I hope I was careful enough with this assumption..

  12. #22192
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    I play a lot of green decks since years, they absolutely do not beat up on blue decks. Miracles and grixis control variants are typically very hard, at least for the past five years or so. And green decks splashing white do relatively well vs storm decks, in my experience. Show and tell is tougher, at least since Omniscience got widely adopted. Anyway, I get the impression you don't run a lot of green decks? That's ok, just be careful making assumptions. I hope I was careful enough with this assumption..
    I'll admit I haven't tested this assumption in a while, but I did a few years back.

    There are a lot of powerful Gx creatures printed the last decade. You can build a deck with high density of midrange threats that are uncounterable, hexproof, provide incremental card advantage, or are just fast clocks and they beat up on blue control. Those creature decks just scoop to combo. They are far more scared of ANT or OopsAllSpells than Miracles or Delver. Maybe today's decks are different new tools like Oko, but this was true at least 2 years ago.
    Last edited by FTW; 02-07-2020 at 08:20 AM.

  13. #22193
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Veil of Summer got it wrong. It theoretically gives green aggro strength against blue, but they didn't need that... so instead combo decks use it to protect against blue decks and blue decks use it for cheap card advantage. Veil should be banned because it helps nongreen decks more than green decks. Combo shouldn't get cantripping Silence and blue shouldn't get 1cmc Dismiss. Veil puts green aggro even further behind.
    .
    I agree with that above.

    Force of Will (which requires 20+ blue cards in deck) is necessary to keep turn 1 combo in check in Legacy. It just so happens Brainstorm and Force of Will are both blue, so there is 8/20 cards and you choose the rest depending upon the shell, but probably put 4 Ponder in there too.

    For a green threat to really matter, it has to be relevant on the draw. I don't know how you do that, but maybe a Chancellor effect that prevents your opponent from casting more than 1 spell on turn 1 and then a creature than can be cast after that. The creature also either needs to have U in the casting cost (to pitch to FOW) or be cast on turn 1 or 2, because it has to come down early to interact with combo. So that means a 1 cc creature (which we don't have too many 1 cc hate bears) or a 2 cc creature or higher with some kind of early-turn benefit or accelerator. I think a legendary creature with GG - reveal from your starting hand, spells your opponent casts Turn 1 cost 1 more to cast, your opponent's lands come into play tapped, 2/3

    Currently, the Green ramp decks run artifacts (Chalice or Trinisphere) or splash U for FOW or some decks just run Mindbreak Trap naked out of the board (I've seen this in Death & Taxes and Goblins, just throw 2 MBT in the board to catch them off guard).
    "Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."

  14. #22194
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Someday somebody's gonna build a deck with four Nacatls, four Tarmogoyfs, and a trillion Ghazban Ogres, and they're going to crush all the value Delver lists, and people are going to whinge and cry and call for Ghazban Ogre to be banned.

    I'll just keep playing combo, because that's always been the best answer to "the blew stue."
    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    If you diversified your cantrips, a chalice wouldn't be a liability.
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    You want interesting, nonbinary games? Don't make your deck so reliant on cantrips, like pretty much every above deck.
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  15. #22195
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Wizard View Post
    Force of Will (which requires 20+ blue cards in deck) is necessary to keep turn 1 combo in check in Legacy. [...]

    Currently, the Green ramp decks run artifacts (Chalice or Trinisphere) or splash U for FOW or some decks just run Mindbreak Trap naked out of the board (I've seen this in Death & Taxes and Goblins, just throw 2 MBT in the board to catch them off guard).
    Combo decks that go off before the other player gets to untap typically use the graveyard. Leyline of the void is an excellent t0 answer to those strategies, I've been using it to compensate for lack of FoW in non-blue decks for a long time. It's not green, so there is space to explore for green - not arguing that, just saying LotV complements the MBT you mentioned and I think it's typically the better option, depending on deck, meta etc of course. Recently even blue decks start running it, it seems. Actually, I really like MBT too, with less discard run due to veil it seems a bit more reliable.

    Edit: there are a few exceptions but they haven't historically been very popular, thinking mostly of Belcher. Among the t1 combo decks not using the graveyard.

    Edit2: added the first sentence to the quote, providing relevant context for my response.
    Last edited by pettdan; 02-04-2020 at 03:18 PM.

  16. #22196
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    By "green decks" I don't mean Legacy tier green decks, but the wider pool of casual decks with Forests. There are a lot of powerful Gx creatures printed the last decade. You can build a deck with high density of midrange threats that are uncounterable, hexproof, provide incremental card advantage, or are just fast clocks. If you play tier 1 Legacy blue control in a casual meta, it will lose to random homebrews that just churn out more threats than they can answer. Those homebrews just scoop to combo. They are far more scared of ANT or OopsAllSpells than Miracles, Grixis or Delver. Maybe today's decks are different with all the new tools like Oko, but this was true at least 2 years ago.
    Every deck needs to have a very clear plan for how it beats combo decks, absolutely, agreeing on that.

    But still, I think Miracles loves beating up on all creature pile decks. I've spent quite some time trying to figure out which creatures or planeswalkers I should play to have a good fighting chance vs that deck, it seemed tough to me but I guess I need to check my own assumptions too, I haven't played a pile of green value creatures against Miracles. I guess the closest I get is Sylvan Plug, designed to beat blue control, funny enough it's hard to beat Miracles with it, I got absolutely rolled over by it a few months back when I tested it again. Not that my tests provide invaluable proof, they don't. On that topic, sorry if I stray too far, old Junk from maybe 2013 was absolutely great at beating Miracles back then. I think Miracles or the meta evolved too much since then, for it to work any more..

    So, how is this relevant here, I need to remind myself. We were discussing printing a green creature with the powerlevel of TNN. I think it would be good for the state of legacy. I'm currently trying out Thrun and Sigarda in Maverick, that's a bit dated pre-TNN tech. There's not much printed that's better and Oko resistant and StP resistant, and if it isn't, it's likely to be had for breakfast by blue control decks. Actually it needs to be resistant to Coatl too, so only Thtun passes those tests, but I run Punishing Fire too so I figured Sigarda should have a chance of getting through for damage often enough.

  17. #22197
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Loses to any deck playing Lion's Eye Diamond, Dark Ritual or KarnSnaring Bridge. Seems balanced enough to print in Legacy Masters, not even joking.

    Green has no problem with blue decks. I tested this theory online a while ago and crushed tier 1 blue decks with casual jank. Those decks aren't built to answer 30 threats, especially when many are uncounterable or hexproof. They run out of answers and their threats get outclassed. The problem is Forest scoops to Dark Ritual/LED. Delver of Secrets invalidates Wild Nacatl not because green needs better tools to fight blue but because blue can present a similar clock while ALSO doing a lot better against combo. When blue can run the best threats and also beat combo, it makes nonblue obsolete.

    Giving green more powerful beaters that blue can't splash will help, but if it's still 10-90 vs ANT and Dredge and 0-100 vs Belcher, they have to ask themselves "why not play Delver instead?".

    Veil of Summer got it wrong. It theoretically gives green aggro strength against blue, but they didn't need that... so instead combo decks use it to protect against blue decks and blue decks use it for cheap card advantage. Veil should be banned because it helps nongreen decks more than green decks. Combo shouldn't get cantripping Silence and blue shouldn't get 1cmc Dismiss. Veil puts green aggro even further behind.

    A green TNN doesn't solve those problems. Here's a possible template.

    Green N Ent - GGG - Creature - Troll Beast
    ~ has protection from blue and black in all zones.
    All other creatures lose protection from ~.
    G: Regenerates
    4/3

    Beats TNN in combat. Beats discard, counters, black removal, Surgical, and even Slaughter Games. Dies to Plateau.
    But it still loses to Dark Ritual.
    Doesn't Veil in theory beat Dark Ritual by protecting you and your hate though? And it still has enough relevant text against the field to slot into the mainboard.

    This is unreal. They actually printed a cmc1 instant speed spell that reads "Green-not-Blue doesn't autolose to Tendrils of Agony" that is dead against itself on either side of the table, and the card needs to go because it's good in blue decks.

  18. #22198

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    This is your penance for refusing to play Autumn's Veil.

  19. #22199

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Watersaw View Post
    Doesn't Veil in theory beat Dark Ritual by protecting you and your hate though? And it still has enough relevant text against the field to slot into the mainboard.

    This is unreal. They actually printed a cmc1 instant speed spell that reads "Green-not-Blue doesn't autolose to Tendrils of Agony" that is dead against itself on either side of the table, and the card needs to go because it's good in blue decks.
    It is unreal, but happily the ban Veil crowd and ban-happy attitude in general is a minority of the Legacy community.

    On what basis would it be banned? Because it makes a deck dominate the metagame?
    According to TCDecks, the top decks in January were: 1 UR Burn 236 2 Death and Taxes 200 3 Miracle Control 199 4 Eldrazi 145 5 Grixis Pyromancer 128 6 4c Control 106 7 The Epic Storm 105 8 Elves 94 9 Threshold UGR 84 10 Post Ramp 82 11 Lands 82 12 Dark Depths 81 13 Hogaak Combo 81 etc.

    Because it's omnipresent in finishes?
    I went back and looked at the most recent larger tournaments (60+ players), going back to January 11th, and counted how many main deck copies of Veil were in the entire top 8, in how many decks:
    4 copies, 1 deck / 0 copies, 0 decks / 7 copies, 3 decks / 5 copies, 2 decks / 6 copies, 2 decks / 4 copies, 1 deck / 4 copies, 1 deck / 4 copies, 1 deck / 1 copy, 1 deck / 1 copy, 1 deck

    Because green shouldn't have it or whatever?
    I'm not picking on Ian, Thomas, and Wilson, because I really do like them and they do good work, but a couple of things they said while talking about bans (they want an Astrolabe ban) and Veil of Summer really stuck out to me as emblematic of something.

    Wilson at 55:53: "If you drop Oko into the pre-Astrolabe, pre-Veil Legacy, I think that green is a tax in that era of Legacy, and I really like that." (the following discussion centers on blue mirrors, and having to previously go to Pyroblast)

    Ian at 57:52. "It's way too cheap to play green right now."
    and 58:44 "I kinda want to bring it back to a place where there's a real cost to playing green."

    I find it hard to wrap my head around saying that about green, and a color needing a cost to playing it, when you have blue, which has gotten Delver, Snapcaster, True-Name, and others; not everything revolves around the blue mirror.

  20. #22200
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    Combo decks that go off before the other player gets to untap typically use the graveyard. Leyline of the void is an excellent t0 answer to those strategies, I've been using it to compensate for lack of FoW in non-blue decks for a long time. It's not green, so there is space to explore for green - not arguing that, just saying LotV complements the MBT you mentioned and I think it's typically the better option, depending on deck, meta etc of course. Recently even blue decks start running it, it seems. Actually, I really like MBT too, with less discard run due to veil it seems a bit more reliable.

    Edit: there are a few exceptions but they haven't historically been very popular, thinking mostly of Belcher. Among the t1 combo decks not using the graveyard.

    Edit2: added the first sentence to the quote, providing relevant context for my response.
    That's a good point about Leyline of the Void, but how do you beat Show and Tell? ANT/TES can still make a bunch of goblin tokens even without the graveyard, vs most decks, 10+ goblin tokens is game over

    Quote Originally Posted by Watersaw View Post
    Doesn't Veil in theory beat Dark Ritual by protecting you and your hate though? And it still has enough relevant text against the field to slot into the mainboard.

    This is unreal. They actually printed a cmc1 instant speed spell that reads "Green-not-Blue doesn't autolose to Tendrils of Agony" that is dead against itself on either side of the table, and the card needs to go because it's good in blue decks.
    Veil doesn't protect you against Dark Ritual because they still have Empty the Warrens and it doesn't stop the turn - they could cast Ad Nauseum, draw up, pass the turn, and combo off next turn.


    Quote Originally Posted by LOLWut View Post
    It is unreal, but happily the ban Veil crowd and ban-happy attitude in general is a minority of the Legacy community.

    On what basis would it be banned? Because it makes a deck dominate the metagame?
    According to TCDecks, the top decks in January were: 1 UR Burn 236 2 Death and Taxes 200 3 Miracle Control 199 4 Eldrazi 145 5 Grixis Pyromancer 128 6 4c Control 106 7 The Epic Storm 105 8 Elves 94 9 Threshold UGR 84 10 Post Ramp 82 11 Lands 82 12 Dark Depths 81 13 Hogaak Combo 81 etc.

    Because it's omnipresent in finishes?
    I went back and looked at the most recent larger tournaments (60+ players), going back to January 11th, and counted how many main deck copies of Veil were in the entire top 8, in how many decks:
    4 copies, 1 deck / 0 copies, 0 decks / 7 copies, 3 decks / 5 copies, 2 decks / 6 copies, 2 decks / 4 copies, 1 deck / 4 copies, 1 deck / 4 copies, 1 deck / 1 copy, 1 deck / 1 copy, 1 deck

    Because green shouldn't have it or whatever?
    I'm not picking on Ian, Thomas, and Wilson, because I really do like them and they do good work, but a couple of things they said while talking about bans (they want an Astrolabe ban) and Veil of Summer really stuck out to me as emblematic of something.

    Wilson at 55:53: "If you drop Oko into the pre-Astrolabe, pre-Veil Legacy, I think that green is a tax in that era of Legacy, and I really like that." (the following discussion centers on blue mirrors, and having to previously go to Pyroblast)

    Ian at 57:52. "It's way too cheap to play green right now."
    and 58:44 "I kinda want to bring it back to a place where there's a real cost to playing green."

    I find it hard to wrap my head around saying that about green, and a color needing a cost to playing it, when you have blue, which has gotten Delver, Snapcaster, True-Name, and others; not everything revolves around the blue mirror.
    It seems to me like you like Veil because you realize how powerful it is and you want to keep it around. If the card is not powerful, let it go. Your argument is that the card is weak, but you want to keep it, so why do you want to keep it?

    Ian, Thomas, and Wilson, I assume, are talking about UW Control in Legacy and what has happened to the deck. UW Control has been around forever, it is a staple of the format. For almost all of its existence, the deck was UW or splashed R for Pyroblast and occasionally other goodies out of the sideboard.

    The quotes you have from Ian talk about how UW is playing Green and why. Wilson says, if you didn't have Astrolabe, Veil, and (likely Ice-Fang Coatl), the cost to play Oko in UW would be too high. However, the combination of Astrolabe and Veil (and perhaps Ice Fang) all of a sudden make it worth it to splash Green in UW for Oko. He has a good point.

    Each player is going to have their own preferences and likely defend them, consciously or subconsciously. The argument against Veil is that it is seeing play in a lot of decks, it's seeing play in aggressive decks (vs. defensive decks), it tends to overpower games, it negates a ton of healthy cards in the format in an unhealthy way, and it skews the color balance in a historically-upending way.
    "Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."

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