All B/R update speculation.

[Quasim0ff]

Oh but it is. You claim that Brainstorm is such a diversifying card, but in the end it's just a name. It's just a title. Black Lotus goes in a Diverse range of Decks, as does Recall. The argument is worthless. To say "It fits into 80% of the decks that are played (Or insert given number here) therefore it's fine seems like a silly argument. Because I know Black Lotus would also do something similar but I don't get the feeling that" But it is in a range of decks" would float anywhere when it comes to Lotus.

"But the format is so Diverse" is your opinion, "The format is inbreed" happens to be my own. Diversity is in the lense of the beholder in this case, because a large amount of people disagree that Legacy is in fact diverse right now. A fact hundreds of pages of shit bears out.

If you want to tell me that Brainstorm should not be Banned because it happens to slot nicely into anything with an Island in it, then I want to know why I can't have Lotus if that's the criteria we are setting ourselves. "It goes in so many things, so it must be ok."I feel is very flawed and, well I could make the same comment about the Moxen but that doesn't mean they should be legal.

But to compare Black Lotus, A. Recall and the other Power 9 with brainstorm is like comparing Yu-Gi-Oh and Star Wars. Not comparable.

Also, it doesn't go into anything with U in it. Merfolk doesn't play it, because it doesn't function in their strategy.

[Dice_Box]

Brainstorm has been compared, favourably, to Recall many many times. Also, that is not a response to the critical issue with saying it's format diversifying. It's as format diversifing as Recall. In other words, if you can play it, you probably should be playing it.

[Quasim0ff]

Brainstorm has been compared, favourably, to Recall many many times. Also, that is not a response to the critical issue with saying it's format diversifying. It's as format diversifing as Recall. In other words, if you can play it, you probably should be playing it.

If you legitimately think brainstorm is comparable to recall, you are clueless. Sorry.

And that's just not true. D&T, Elves, merfolk, mud are all viable strategies. These deck wouldn't want Brainstorm.

[Gheizen64]

If you legitimately think brainstorm is comparable to recall, you are clueless. Sorry.

And that's just not true. D&T, Elves, merfolk, mud are all viable strategies. These deck wouldn't want Brainstorm.

In the end it's just this. Brainstorm is sacred. Nothing can be compared to it, even if they do largely the same things. It can't be banned, even if it post higher numbers than any other card in the history of this game, because it fuel "different strategies. It's just a matter of faith. Believe in the brainstorm, as it is fair and balanced, and draw you 3 cards, but let not us be affected by discard, and let us unmulligan for free, amen.

[Dice_Box]

If you legitimately think brainstorm is comparable to recall, you are clueless. Sorry.

And that's just not true. D&T, Elves, merfolk, mud are all viable strategies. These deck wouldn't want Brainstorm.

I am not clueless, I am saying they get compared. On coverage by many people the comment is made, some articles make the comment, it's around the shop. I also think that in some situations, Brainstorm can be more powerful then Recall. (Granted those are situations not a rule)

Also, you miss my point. Saying Elves doesn't play Brainstorm is like saying Shops doesn't play Recall. Yea, we know that, there is a reason for that. I wasn't talking about Elves or the list of other decks that are not in Blue. (Fish being the exception in both cases as it doesn't play Brainstorm or Recall in some cases. But that's because it's engine is its redundancy in card multiplicity.)

Saying "Look at Elves" is really old. The issue is not that Elves doesn't want to play Brainstorm, it's that 80% of the format does.

[bruizar]

When will this thread ever move away from Brainstorm as the center of discussion?

[Dice_Box]

When will this thread ever move away from Brainstorm as the center of discussion?

I wish. It had for a moment... Then this... Sigh.

[LeoCop 90]

I wish never, because brainstorm is the main problem and ignoring it serves no purpose.

[Nielsie]

When will this thread ever move away from Brainstorm as the center of discussion?

When it is banned? ;)

[Teveshszat]

When people finaly accept that lamenting over things they dislike does not change anything and instead focus on things they can change.
So never until humanity or Magic as game creases to exist

[Stuart]

When will this thread ever move away from Brainstorm as the center of discussion?

When people stop missing the forest for the trees. If your experience of playing against Miracles, Omni, Delver, Blade, ANT, Reanimator, etc is defined by the fact that cantrips get cast, that's an issue with you and your perspective.

[menace13]

What you fail to realise, is that strategic diversity is actually incredible valuable in a format. Survival, Mystical Tutor, TC all promoted a single strategy, Brainstorm doesn't.

What you fail to realize is that I can also pick a card that doesn't promote a single strat and had lesser penetration than BS, but still got the axe for making the format "too blue". That card also went into even more decks than BS. Fuk your strategic diversity bullshit.

[jrsthethird]

But to compare Black Lotus, A. Recall and the other Power 9 with brainstorm is like comparing Yu-Gi-Oh and Star Wars. Not comparable.

Believe in the brainstorm, as it is fair and balanced, and draw you 3 cards, but let not us be affected by discard, and let us unmulligan for free, amen.

To me that sounds pretty much like Recall, except Recall still doesn't protect you from discard. Point: Brainstorm.

When people finaly accept that lamenting over things they dislike does not change anything and instead focus on things they can change.
So never until humanity or Magic as game creases to exist

We can't change anything here on this god-forsaken thread. But we can change Elves so that it runs Brainstorm.

What you fail to realize is that I can also pick a card that doesn't promote a single strat and had lesser penetration than BS, but still got the axe for making the format "too blue". That card also went into even more decks than BS. Fuk your strategic diversity bullshit.

It never 32/32'd 3 Grand Prix though. ;)

[nedleeds]

What you fail to realize is that I can also pick a card that doesn't promote a single strat and had lesser penetration than BS, but still got the axe for making the format "too blue". That card also went into even more decks than BS. Fuk your strategic diversity bullshit.

I'm headed to the tattoo parlor ...

[Crimhead]

Uh, TC got incorporated into a variety of decks like Dig has done. Less so, but still.
Same applies to Survival: Just as Dig promotes small spell focused decks with the cantrip engine to fuel it, Survival promoted the use of creatures. Apart from that, you saw Survival decks utilize just about any strategy that reasonably uses creatures...

To me this is worse than catrips/dig. Those cards support creature based play-styles like midrange and tempo, but they also promote decks which run few or even zero creatures, like Omnitell and Miracles (the cantrips also support Storm). It's nice to have decks which don't run creatures.

Black Lotus goes in a Diverse range of Decks, as does Recall.

...As one-ofs in Vintage. We can't really claim that Legacy would sport a diverse range of strategies with Lotus and Recall legal in foursomes.

What you fail to realize is that I can also pick a card that doesn't promote a single strat and had lesser penetration than BS, but still got the axe for making the format "too blue". That card also went into even more decks than BS.

I assume you mean MM? That era was far less diverse than what we have today - Stoneblade and NO Bant were everywhere. And please don't cite the GP that happened a couple day safer New Phyrexia - the meta had not adjusted yet and this tournament is not representative of the months which followed.

The explanation for that ban clearly referenced format diversity - it wasn't all about the blueness.

[nedleeds]

The explanation for that ban clearly referenced format diversity - it wasn't all about the blueness.

You are not quite correct on that one.

Unfortunately, it turned out poorly. Looking at high-level tournaments, instead of results having blue and nonblue decks playing Mental Misstep, there are more blue decks than ever.

http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/mag...y/feature/161b

(Friendly mod edit: even if you vehemently disagree with someone, don't insult them.)

[Crimhead]

The DCI is banning Mental Misstep, with the hopes of restoring the more diverse metagame that existed prior to the printing of Mental Misstep.

Format diversity FTW. The MM meta was horribly non-diverse.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

On another note...

Suppose WotC decides that the cantrip engine is bad for Legacy, and that they ban cards in large, sweeping gesture akin to when BS was restricted in Vintage. Say they ban DTT, BS, and Ponder. I think it would be very interesting to speculate on what this would do to the meta. Obviously w can only guess, as this is very complex. I'm going to run through my initial thoughts, and maybe some other folks can comment and offer a different perspective/opinion:

Aggro (including midrange and tempo)

Delver decks probably take the biggest hit here. These decks have a lot of close MUs, and very few highly favourable MUs. Losing the best cantrips might be too big a blow, and I'm not sure they could survive at all - especially if Punishing Fire decks make a big comeback. What would they prey on?

Cantrip-less midrange and aggro should become more competitive - decks like Jund, Junk, Maverick, Goblins, Deadguy, affinity, or brand new brews. Probably at least some of these will become tier one. Maybe even Burn.

Combo

Storm is probably a goner - losing cantrips as well as probably facing more discard.

Omni is probably also gone - that deck uses cantrips and DTT to find what it needs,and that won't be an option anymore. Not sure if here would be a S&T deck viable; nor reanimaor

Dredge should stay about the same - unless there is more main deck yard hate for some reason (more Scooze and DRS?).

Hard to say with Elves - in theory they get better because the rest of the format gets worse; but if we see more aggro we might see more sweepers with it.

Glass cannon decks like Belcher and Oops might get a little boost with the decline of blueness. I'm sure the format can handle this - possibly this would be enough to give tempo decks a purpose.

Control

I can't imagine Miracles could handle this loss - I think it would be as good as dead.

Lands would miss the Delver decks, but should still have solid MUs against most fair decks (it might even prefer the blue-less decks which can't interact with Crop Rotation). Lands won't like Oops or Belcher, but it would love to say goodbye to Omni. I think the deck's position wouldn't change much.

I don't know D&T as well, but I'm guessing it would stay good against fair decks too - and get a boost by the rest of the field taking a hit.

Grixis/Thieves dies. Pyromancer needs those cantrips

Pox? Probably too inconsistent to hold up.

Enchantress might become viable - with less Entreat, Delver, and Grislebrand/Emrakul, Moat becomes a good card again (and it dodges AD).


Obviously this is highly speculative. And obviously banning BS but not Ponder would have less drastic an effect. I suspect I would enjoy Legacy just as much if something like this happened. I'm not trying to prove anything - just curious how the meta would be and would like discussion. I would be interested in critiques and other ideas - let's just try to keep it civil and unheated

[Dice_Box]

Pox doesn't really become less consistent, it's normally mono Black to start with. Also Discard gains a massive boost so a deck like Pox gets an upgrade. As does Jund and other decks that depend of proactive disruption.

I would be shocked if Ponder went at the same time Brainstorm did. Ponder is not really the same beast. It's not an Instant, it can't replace dead draws, it doesn't give you instant access to the cards your looking at and it's not able to answer discard to anywhere near the same effect. The benefit really is that it has a built in shuffle effect. That's it. If we saw Brainstorm banned, likely it would be the only Cantrip banned. Ponder, Preordain and Probe are unlikely to see the axe.

[maharis]

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post905122

Dude, seriously? You just quoted the next sentence after the one Nedleeds did without acknowledging that there is a clear connection between "more blue decks than ever" and a desire for a "more diverse metagame." That's just willful ignorance.

Now, it is entirely possible that the DCI has changed its tune and is more than happy to have a blue-dominated metagame now. It is worse than it ever was in terms of color concentration, and it's even worse than the MM era I believe.

I hope they change their mind. I don't like starting every deck with 35 slots already figured out, and then having to hit enough blue cards in the remaining 25 to support the 4 Force I have to run because it's my only real defense.

Edit: Owned by page break

[maharis]

I also firmly believe that DTT and even TC are only problematic because the best thing to be doing ALREADY is filling your GY with cantrips and fetches. If Delve was a build-around mechanic instead of a clear upgrade to existing nearly-playable cards it would be much more interesting. If you had to play Mulch or Thought Scour or something, for example.

I don't own Tarmogoyf so I tested Tasigur in Bx non-U midrange decks for a while. It's just not as good as you think in traditional shells because you don't actually fill your GY as much as you think you do/would consistently. That's because:

-Your deck probably has at least 22 land -- 2 more than most cantrip builds and sometimes as high as 6 more. And it could easily be 23-24 depending on what you're doing. But you still probably only play 8 fetches at most, so more of your lands stay on the board.

-You also are using the board instead of the stack to play. More of your cards are meant to stick early, so you don't have first two turns like fetch-ponder, land-brainstorm-fetch-delver, holding up force, for you to be able to delve a ton after you untap turn 3. Of course B decks open on Thoughtseize sometimes, but also DRS, SDT, Mom, or even just land-go. And they might not even fetch.

-You are probably trying to gain card advantage by using the GY for recursion or as a resource. So you use your own DRS on your GY, or you need to flashback Cabal Therapy/Lingering Souls, or you drop a couple Zombies in there, or you have a Knight of the Reliquary in your deck. So there's less "air" for you to delve away.

Of course there are plenty of non-U cards that will fill the GY for you: Faithless Looting, Loam/other Dredge cards, Mulch variants, Lotus Petal/LED.... but they are all build-arounds that are underpowered except in well-explored shells. The delve engine that's really just cantrips + fetch was great before Khans of Tarkir and will be good when the format is banned back to the stone age. DTT and TC have very swingy effects, and when they're ridiculously easy to cast, of course they'll seem oppressive, but really what will happen when they are both banned? Most of those decks will still be viable if not top-tier just because of the strength of the cantrip engine.

The argument for kneecapping the cantrip shell over just getting rid of the most powerful Delve cards is that Wizards has tended to nuke the enabler, NOT the offender, over the years. That was the Survival argument.

But if they go from banning Survival and Misstep to banning TC and DTT, then they should also ban Vengevine and unban Survival. And maybe there are other cards that can be moved around too. VV does nothing at all without SotF, just like TC and DTT might not do anything, or at least be limited, without 12 insane cantrips and 8 fetches in every deck.