All B/R update speculation.

[wcm8]

BUG will remain on top, I think, because it can play the tempo role just as well as the midrange role. Lurrus enables that further, and in running a build with 4x Goyf that eschews Bauble and instead plays 2x Lotus Petal and Hymn to Tourach.

Dread of Night is always an option if white weenie becomes a problem; Massacre is another blow out card there. Plague Engineer, and Engineered Explosives (recursive with Lurrus) are also quite powerful.

As fun as Lurrus is for the time being, it’s ubiquity seems like it may be ban worthy before too long. Certainly in Legacy anyways, where there’s hardly no problem with running 2cmc spells.

I think Lurrus would have been fine if he demanded that ALL spells (not just permanents) had to cost 2 or less. That way, you’d have to run FoW in the board or not at all and it’d be a real deck building constraint.

[JosefK]

@FTW

I don't think delver is the best lurrus shell. Currently the most played obviously. But in reality lurrus rarely has any effect on the game before turn 4 in a delver deck (few lands, waste/daze, double tertiary color requirement). And up until that moment you are just a strictly worse deck than delver from a month ago.

But it's basically free to play in delver, (unless you play RUG as some have had success with lately) so delver will play it. Delver is always delver, if 40 people decide to play it in a challenge some will rise to the top. But given time, i think we will see better decks. Lurrus-elves, lurrus-steel stompy, lurrus dnt, jtls vantress gargoyle lurrus "gushguy" deck, lurrus infect etc. I would love to see where this ends, then we probably need to ban things (preferrably the whole mechanic).

[kinda]

Who thinks Oko is too good, needs to go?

[ahg113]

I still think Oko is too good. But I feel the same way about Brainstorm, and a bunch of other things with the Awesome mechanic.


As an aside, I doubt anything happens ban wise with anything companion until the next set is released. Maybe those cards aren't printed, but I'm sure there is a complete set of cards for the next expansion. They did the companion mechanic in all the color combinations (ally, enemy), but I wouldn't be surprised to see more of it, like finishing the triome set, or enemy colors for the human uncommons. Because game play aside, as alluded to elsewhere in the forum - $$$.

[PirateKing]

Who thinks Oko is too good, needs to go?

Dunk on Lurrus all you want, but people are playing less Oko now

[Mr. Safety]

Lurrus, and companions in general, feel like Mental Misstep to me. By not playing them you are significantly handicapping yourself against decks that do. I may be way off on this idea, but hearing from several podcasts that the companions are the new normal unless banned, it seems like Misstep is at least a passable analogy.

Oko? Whatever. Given a metagame that stabilizes (if that ever happens again...) there will be a shift that will deal with Oko.

[thefreakaccident]

Companions still legal? I haven't had a chance to play with them yet.

[jmlima]

Lurrus, and companions in general, feel like Mental Misstep to me. By not playing them you are significantly handicapping yourself against decks that do. I may be way off on this idea, but hearing from several podcasts that the companions are the new normal unless banned, it seems like Misstep is at least a passable analogy.

Oko? Whatever. Given a metagame that stabilizes (if that ever happens again...) there will be a shift that will deal with Oko.

Lurrus decks, 45.6%, companion decks, 56.4%:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...acy-adaptation

Top 8 of the challenge : 5 lurrus, 6 companion decks.

Having said that, Brainstorm / blue shell decks, 59.5%.

Take your pick of which one is the biggest issue.

[Izor]

Lurrus decks, 45.6%, companion decks, 56.4%:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...acy-adaptation

Top 8 of the challenge : 5 lurrus, 6 companion decks.

Having said that, Brainstorm / blue shell decks, 59.5%.

Take your pick of which one is the biggest issue.

It's the same answer as always. Games between fair decks involving Lurrus and the other companions currently revolve around the companions only. Every step you take starting with your mulligan decision will be influenced by how your current resources would play against the potential Companion being cast on turn X of the game. This new kind of subgame might be appealing to some at this stage, but I think it will get old really quickly.

Brainstorm doesn't have games revolved around itself. In fair blue mirrors involving red blasts you'll even rarely see Brainstorms blasted, instead people will go for Delvers, Planeswalkers and whatever. In fair Lurrus mirrors you 100% always have to save a counter or kill spell for the Lurrus and you bet people will take hits from Arcanist and similar threats while sitting on a Bolt just to make sure Lurus doesn't live through a full turn cycle.

Brainstorm is the single reason why Legacy is the most skill-intensive and less draw-dependent format. If I want to play Magic and have a substantial amount of games be decided by who draws better openers and mana screw/flood, I'll play Limited. Time has shown again and again that while Brainstorm is likely the best constructed card in Magic that is currently legal in a format (relatively to the format it's legal in), the metagame around it can be totally balanced and enjoyable. It merely makes sure that fair blue decks can compete with the uninteractive decks in the format, because every Brainstorm is an Ancestral when you have 15 dead cards in your deck in a certain matchup as opposed to only some of them being Ancestrals.

It's funny how we're comparing a cantrip whose best case is Ancestral and whose worst case is a self-lock for 2 turns with a mechanic that grants a free 8th card in your starting hand. There's no doubt WotC has already realized what they've done and they're already thinking about how to fix this worst design fail since phyrexian mana, but the question remains if they'll show balls for once and openly admit and correct their mistake by just axing the broken mechanic from all formats it's destroying, or if they'll continue to just wait on a ban until the next utterly power-crept set releases and brings something that's even more broken and lets people forget the previous issues anyway.

[jmlima]

...There's no doubt WotC has already realized what they've done and they're already thinking about how to fix this worst design fail since phyrexian mana, but the question remains if they'll show balls for once and openly admit and correct their mistake by just axing the broken mechanic from all formats it's destroying, or if they'll continue to just wait on a ban until the next utterly power-crept set releases and brings something that's even more broken and lets people forget the previous issues anyway.

Since they have not yet begun the serious cashing-in of this latest set, I guess we know what the answer will be.

(Having said that, with lockdown widespread, unemployment skyrocketing, and no guarantee of when work will fully re-start for a lot of people, how many people will be keen to splash money on paper cards they won't be able to use for god knows how long?...)

[Mr. Safety]

It's the same answer as always. Games between fair decks involving Lurrus and the other companions currently revolve around the companions only. Every step you take starting with your mulligan decision will be influenced by how your current resources would play against the potential Companion being cast on turn X of the game. This new kind of subgame might be appealing to some at this stage, but I think it will get old really quickly.

Brainstorm doesn't have games revolved around itself. In fair blue mirrors involving red blasts you'll even rarely see Brainstorms blasted, instead people will go for Delvers, Planeswalkers and whatever. In fair Lurrus mirrors you 100% always have to save a counter or kill spell for the Lurrus and you bet people will take hits from Arcanist and similar threats while sitting on a Bolt just to make sure Lurus doesn't live through a full turn cycle.

Brainstorm is the single reason why Legacy is the most skill-intensive and less draw-dependent format. If I want to play Magic and have a substantial amount of games be decided by who draws better openers and mana screw/flood, I'll play Limited. Time has shown again and again that while Brainstorm is likely the best constructed card in Magic that is currently legal in a format (relatively to the format it's legal in), the metagame around it can be totally balanced and enjoyable. It merely makes sure that fair blue decks can compete with the uninteractive decks in the format, because every Brainstorm is an Ancestral when you have 15 dead cards in your deck in a certain matchup as opposed to only some of them being Ancestrals.

It's funny how we're comparing a cantrip whose best case is Ancestral and whose worst case is a self-lock for 2 turns with a mechanic that grants a free 8th card in your starting hand. There's no doubt WotC has already realized what they've done and they're already thinking about how to fix this worst design fail since phyrexian mana, but the question remains if they'll show balls for once and openly admit and correct their mistake by just axing the broken mechanic from all formats it's destroying, or if they'll continue to just wait on a ban until the next utterly power-crept set releases and brings something that's even more broken and lets people forget the previous issues anyway.

Good summation, I agree 100%.

I don't see why they can't just make statement like this (meaning WOTC):

"We don't really test older formats, just Standard and Limited. The companion cards appear to be fine in those formats but detrimental to older formats, given the deeper card pool. For this reason the companion mechanic will be confined to Standard, Draft, and Sealed formats. The cards themselves will still be legal in all formats, minus the companion text. While the impact has been detrimental to older formats, we will continue to test new waters for potential game mechanics, which may result in further bans."

[Cire]

Lurrus decks, 45.6%, companion decks, 56.4%:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...acy-adaptation

Top 8 of the challenge : 5 lurrus, 6 companion decks.

Having said that, Brainstorm / blue shell decks, 59.5%.

Take your pick of which one is the biggest issue.

If Lurrus is the price we have to pay for best doggo Isamaru to be playable then so be it.

[Barook]

Good summation, I agree 100%.

I don't see why they can't just make statement like this (meaning WOTC):

"We don't really test older formats, just Standard and Limited. The companion cards appear to be fine in those formats but detrimental to older formats, given the deeper card pool. For this reason the companion mechanic will be confined to Standard, Draft, and Sealed formats. The cards themselves will still be legal in all formats, minus the companion text. While the impact has been detrimental to older formats, we will continue to test new waters for potential game mechanics, which may result in further bans."

I'd like to see the companion cards around as normal cards. The degenerate part of them is getting a free Demonic Tutor for them every game. It should be able to eliminate that aspect in tournament play without outright banning them.

[Mr. Safety]

I'd like to see the companion cards around as normal cards. The degenerate part of them is getting a free Demonic Tutor for them every game. It should be able to eliminate that aspect in tournament play without outright banning them.

Yeah, I think this is the best approach to Legacy/Modern/Pioneer. I see it as the same as commander cards in legacy; there is a whole subset of commander-specific rules that don't apply to Legacy, but the cards are legal to play in Legacy.

EDIT: here's an example Opal Palace

[Cire]

https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/pos...honestly#notes

"Trust me in ten years players will be mad about the latest thing and nostalgic about companions."

[Barook]

https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/pos...honestly#notes

"Trust me in ten years players will be mad about the latest thing and nostalgic about companions."

I read that as:

"We have made a huge mistake, but fuck you all, it's nothing compared to the future mistakes we will make!"

[jmlima]

https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/pos...honestly#notes

"Trust me in ten years players will be mad about the latest thing and nostalgic about companions."

As nostalgic as modern players are of eldrazi winter.

[Zombie]

https://twitter.com/mopanda_mtg/stat...026365953?s=21

Seems "fun".

[Barook]

The dominant archetype is Delver of Secrets with 4 Mishra's Bauble and Karakas (20 of 64 finishes).
Delver is the best Lurrus deck.

The shifts between Grixis, Jeskai and BUG Delver are just an attempt to metagame around each other. Jeskai can run more Karakas and has StP to permanently exile threats so they can't be recurred, good vs Grixis. That seemed fine and dandy until BUG emerged on Sunday, with Assassin's Trophy (to kill things like Karakas, Gyruda), Nimble Mongoose to dodge spot removal, and tech like Dead Weight and Sylvan Library. Delver will adapt again to handle BUG. They'll just keep changing a few slots to metagame around the latest hot Delver variation. The builds are quite similar, and the differences are mainly to beat each other.

Lurrus White Weenie is just a metagame hate deck. Its great results are based on hating out all the Lurrus decks. (I like to call it Lurrus and Taxes, because it is guaranteed to face Lurrus decks and tax them).

Then there are decks like Lurrus TES/ANT that are reallly just regular TES/ANT running Lurrus for free storm at no cost.

What's pretty interesting is how often Delver ends up being the best deck with general purpose cards that were later banned, e.g. Treasure Cruise, W&6, now probably Lurrus. And that doesn't include cards like DRS or Gitaxian Probe.

[bruizar]

What's pretty interesting is how often Delver ends up being the best deck with general purpose cards that were later banned, e.g. Treasure Cruise, W&6, now probably Lurrus. And that doesn't include cards like DRS or Gitaxian Probe.

Maybe ban the 3/2 flyer aka the lightning bolt with suspend 1 and permanent rebound