All B/R update speculation.

[Hanni]

The ban DRS arguments sound alot like the ban Tarmogoyf arguments from 2008.

[Sidneyious]

After Brainstorm and Ponder have bit the dust, sure.

Unlikely as drs is taking over, they are not as degenerate as a 1 Mana answer to 90% of decks.

Valhalla's gate

[Hanni]

Unlikely as drs is taking over, they are not as degenerate as a 1 Mana answer to 90% of decks.

Valhalla's gate

So they should have banned DRS, and not Top, to have contained Miracles?

[Kanti]

I wanted to shitpost, and probably will at the end of the post, but I rather add my two cents. I think what gets people riled up the most in the community in when cards become ubiquitous, and phase out other cards. Tarmogoyf got so much backlash because until then, and really since then, there was no vanilla two drop that was THAT good. You start at Grizzly Bear, work yourself to Werebear, and then Goyf comes out and invalidates every 2cc that isn't a hatebear. People like options, they like diversity, and there isn't any diversity in having a 2cc drop that not only every deck can play, but every deck WANTS To play.

With that said, Goyf was heavy, heavy, heavy FOTM. Goyfstill, Goyfidarity, Mono Red Goyf, TEGoyf, Canadian Goyfhold. Every deck tried to build around Goyf because it was the best creature of it's time. DRS is really the same, it is the best creature out right now, period, and so the numbers might be a bit saturated. And this is what bothers people, me included, so much. There usually isn't a "best creature" in a format as big as Legacy, as it's all relative. DRS though, in any match up, is one of the best cards you can resolve.

I am biased as hell though. I love my graveyard, and have been trying to play spells out of it since Odyssey. Main-deck gy hate is not something I'm excited about.

tl;dr- Ban DRS, make my Snapcasters better plz.

edit: I think these results might show what I mean- http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/cov...acy/#top8decks
Top 8 at the MKM. 3 combo decks that obviously won't play Deathrite Shaman as they are combo, and the other 5 decks all play Deathrite. Grixis Delver, Stoneblade, Elves, Punishing Loam, and Food Chain. None of those decks resemble one another in the slightest, from mana-bases to play style they are all wildy different. What do they have in common though? You guessed it, they play the best creature in the format, even if they have to splash an extra color for him.

[bruizar]

I wanted to shitpost, and probably will at the end of the post, but I rather add my two cents. I think what gets people riled up the most in the community in when cards become ubiquitous, and phase out other cards. Tarmogoyf got so much backlash because until then, and really since then, there was no vanilla two drop that was THAT good. You start at Grizzly Bear, work yourself to Werebear, and then Goyf comes out and invalidates every 2cc that isn't a hatebear. People like options, they like diversity, and there isn't any diversity in having a 2cc drop that not only every deck can play, but every deck WANTS To play.

With that said, Goyf was heavy, heavy, heavy FOTM. Goyfstill, Goyfidarity, Mono Red Goyf, TEGoyf, Canadian Goyfhold. Every deck tried to build around Goyf because it was the best creature of it's time. DRS is really the same, it is the best creature out right now, period, and so the numbers might be a bit saturated. And this is what bothers people, me included, so much. There usually isn't a "best creature" in a format as big as Legacy, as it's all relative. DRS though, in any match up, is one of the best cards you can resolve.

I am biased as hell though. I love my graveyard, and have been trying to play spells out of it since Odyssey. Main-deck gy hate is not something I'm excited about.

tl;dr- Ban DRS, make my Snapcasters better plz.

edit: I think these results might show what I mean- http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/cov...acy/#top8decks
Top 8 at the MKM. 3 combo decks that obviously won't play Deathrite Shaman as they are combo, and the other 5 decks all play Deathrite. Grixis Delver, Stoneblade, Elves, Punishing Loam, and Food Chain. None of those decks resemble one another in the slightest, from mana-bases to play style they are all wildy different. What do they have in common though? You guessed it, they play the best creature in the format, even if they have to splash an extra color for him.

There will always be a best card. You ban DRS you have to ban Snapcaster next. Before you know it, we're back at grizzly bear... Eternal should be home to powerful plays

[Chatto]

What is going on here? The last body isn't even cold yet, and some of us are already screaming 'off with his head'... I agree with Bruizar here, there will always be a best card, and besides 'it dies to removal' is VERY relevant here.

[rubblekill]

If they ban my card, then they HAVE to ban your card as well, right?
/s

[Megadeus]

I wanted to shitpost, and probably will at the end of the post, but I rather add my two cents. I think what gets people riled up the most in the community in when cards become ubiquitous, and phase out other cards. Tarmogoyf got so much backlash because until then, and really since then, there was no vanilla two drop that was THAT good. You start at Grizzly Bear, work yourself to Werebear, and then Goyf comes out and invalidates every 2cc that isn't a hatebear. People like options, they like diversity, and there isn't any diversity in having a 2cc drop that not only every deck can play, but every deck WANTS To play.

With that said, Goyf was heavy, heavy, heavy FOTM. Goyfstill, Goyfidarity, Mono Red Goyf, TEGoyf, Canadian Goyfhold. Every deck tried to build around Goyf because it was the best creature of it's time. DRS is really the same, it is the best creature out right now, period, and so the numbers might be a bit saturated. And this is what bothers people, me included, so much. There usually isn't a "best creature" in a format as big as Legacy, as it's all relative. DRS though, in any match up, is one of the best cards you can resolve.

I am biased as hell though. I love my graveyard, and have been trying to play spells out of it since Odyssey. Main-deck gy hate is not something I'm excited about.

tl;dr- Ban DRS, make my Snapcasters better plz.

edit: I think these results might show what I mean- http://series.magiccardmarket.eu/cov...acy/#top8decks
Top 8 at the MKM. 3 combo decks that obviously won't play Deathrite Shaman as they are combo, and the other 5 decks all play Deathrite. Grixis Delver, Stoneblade, Elves, Punishing Loam, and Food Chain. None of those decks resemble one another in the slightest, from mana-bases to play style they are all wildy different. What do they have in common though? You guessed it, they play the best creature in the format, even if they have to splash an extra color for him.

Take your whole last paragraph and replace death rite with Brainstorm and it works even better.

Seriously, if anybody is talking about a Deathrite ban and using ubiquity as a reason but defends or ignores brainstorm then your whole argument is entirely invalid. When DRS makes up 28/32 top decks at a GP let me know

[Gheizen64]

Unlikely as drs is taking over, they are not as degenerate as a 1 Mana answer to 90% of decks.

Valhalla's gate

So we should unban Ancestral Recall too? Case it's not a 1 mana answer of 90% of decks, it just go in every deck :thinking:

[Dr_D]

Unlikely as drs is taking over, they are not as degenerate as a 1 Mana answer to 90% of decks.

Valhalla's gate

How is DRS an answer to 90% of decks? Can I toss DRS in Moat Stompy to make it tier 1?

[ToadFlinger]

I think that the most disgusting part of Deathrite Shaman is that if you want to beat Deathrite, your best option is Deathrite. Comparing Deathrite to Brainstorm is a little odd. No matter how you slice it, Brainstorm requires some skill to play, and the best answers don't let you play Brainstorm (except Leovold). I'm glad Grim Lavamancer can be cast off Underground Sea, accelerates your mana, gains life, blocks 1/x's, and counters other ones. And gives you a much better game one against decks that use the graveyard. I always love the idea of needing to remove a one-drop that doesn't have to attack to be useful, especially in a deck that isn't weak to sweepers.

[tescrin]

Can I toss DRS in Moat Stompy to make it tier 1?

Yes.


..yes?
..hm


Yes.

[Megadeus]

Yes.


..yes?
..hm


Yes.

Bant MO@T fuck you.dec

4 DRS
4 Brainstorm
3 Mo@t
3 VClique
3 Trygon Predator
2 Ojutai, Dragonlord Rapist
2 Scryb Ranger

4 STP
3 Force
Some planeswalkers

[tescrin]

I think that the most disgusting part of Deathrite Shaman is that if you want to beat Deathrite, your best option is Deathrite. Comparing Deathrite to Brainstorm is a little odd. No matter how you slice it, Brainstorm requires some skill to play, and the best answers don't let you play Brainstorm (except Leovold). I'm glad Grim Lavamancer can be cast off Underground Sea, accelerates your mana, gains life, blocks 1/x's, and counters other ones. And gives you a much better game one against decks that use the graveyard. I always love the idea of needing to remove a one-drop that doesn't have to attack to be useful, especially in a deck that isn't weak to sweepers.

But the thing is, every comparison in your post also is super weak:

- Deathrite. Countered (even after being casted for a full turn) by: Lightning Bolt, Forked Bolt, Grim Lavamancer, Kolaghan's Command, Fatal Push, Dismember, Disfigure, DRS, Abrupt Decay, Maelstrom Pulse, Vindicate, Swords to Plowshares, Rest in Peace, Phyrexian Revoker, Pithing Needle [yes, even his "mana ability"], Chalice, Daze, Force of Will... others?

In terms of colors thats: R, R, R, RB, B, B, B, G/B, GB, GB, WB, W, W, -, -, -, U, U

And all but the counterspells can wait until you untap.

- Brainstorm. Daze, Spell Pierce, Force of Will, Pyroblast, REB.. Leovold.. Sotl?.. Chalice


U, U, U, BUG, R, R, W, -

And all of these are either answers that have to be on the board before hand (proactive), or require instant speed.



Then the Grim Lavamancer. Let's be honest, as this comparison fully misses the best aspect of Lavaman: CA.
Lavaman kills PWs, lavaman kills creatures, lavaman's only problem is that he is worse than Punishing Fire a lot of the time, and the decks that want to use him are typically already using the grave quite a bit. In something like Patriot-Blade; I could see him getting some use if you can manage it with your Snaps.

DRS's problem, and it's not as bad as it could be, is that B has a mana accel. It's not the mana accel, the grave hate, or the clock. It's that B has a mana accel, which helps to make up for B's biggest issue: Tempo Loss.

If U had a 1-mana-accel that was even a 1/1, there's a good chance they'd use it over DRS JUST to pitch to force. a 1/1 with a mana ability would replace DRS in a load of decks, and we *know* it; just cause he'd be blue. If they made B/R DRS with actual-grim lavaman ability but he couldn't hate on Reanimator? People would play that instead, because R would get them CA on a 1-drop; I can almost guarantee it.



Also, why is hating on grave strats maindeck so bad? Everyone uses them now. Lavaman, Snap, Gurmag, DRS, Goyf, Loam, etc.. everything uses it. Having something that helps keep the format stable in terms of the grave actually, IMO, keeps grave decks around. Why? People run less *real* hate. more people *can* hate on the grave deck, but they are often less successful at it in hopes of being more successful elsewhere.

[Lava Snacks]

I ran some tests and he's right. I tossed it in to this previously Tier 1.5 Legacy Shaman tribal deck and thusly invalidated 90% of known decks.

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Bosk Banneret
4 Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro
4 Hearthcage Giant
4 Lightning Crafter
4 Rage Forger
4 Reach of Branches
4 Sisters of the Flame
4 Homarid Shaman
2 Coat of Arms
4 Cavern of Souls
more lands

[Kanti]

Take your whole last paragraph and replace death rite with Brainstorm and it works even better.

Seriously, if anybody is talking about a Deathrite ban and using ubiquity as a reason but defends or ignores brainstorm then your whole argument is entirely invalid. When DRS makes up 28/32 top decks at a GP let me know

Brainstorm isn't my metric. It's an oppresive card that is played in every list that has Islands and isn't Merfolk. Why would I want to to now play vs a Deathrite in everything but combo just because I'm forced to play x10000000 Brainstorms?

[Megadeus]

Brainstorm isn't my metric. It's an oppresive card that is played in every list that has Islands and isn't Merfolk. Why would I want to to now play vs a Deathrite in everything but combo just because I'm forced to play x10000000 Brainstorms?

The point is, if ubiquity is why it should go, then you have brainstorm, ponder, and probably force that are more ubiquitous than deathrite. However it seems that raw ubiquity isn't the only factor for bans

[Kanti]

The point is, if ubiquity is why it should go, then you have brainstorm, ponder, and probably force that are more ubiquitous than deathrite. However it seems that raw ubiquity isn't the only factor for bans

No, the point is ubiquity is why it should go, and why some others cards should go as well, or have gone as well. TC and DTT are both good examples of this, combined with being big hitters. Also, Brainstorm, Git. Probe, and Ponder at least all cantrips, so it really makes sense that you are going to see a high % of "the best cantrip" in an eternal format. Ban those then you ban Preordain and Serum Visions next. You ban DRS and it's not like Deathblade is going to keep splashing for "the best mana-dork".

[Dice_Box]

No, the point is ubiquity is why it should go, and why some others cards should go as well, or have gone as well. TC and DTT are both good examples of this, combined with being big hitters. Also, Brainstorm, Git. Probe, and Ponder at least all cantrips, so it really makes sense that you are going to see a high % of "the best cantrip" in an eternal format. Ban those then you ban Preordain and Serum Visions next. You ban DRS and it's not like Stoneblade is going to keep splashing for "the best mana-dork".

I don't feel like that's is completely true. My issue with Brainstorm is that it's right now much more powerful than Ponder is.(Or any card is overall. Brainstorms power is way beyond what I feel is healthy, but I wish to state I am not here to debate this. Everyone knows my views, this is an example, not a call for another merry-go-round.) Not that it's the best. I would love to see it take a bullet but I don't see myself ever arguing for Ponder going. I don't remember ever having done so in the past either.

The best is not really a line in the sand. Force is the "Best" counter, but there is no fucking way you will hear me saying I want it banned. Back in 03 when I started playing 1.5, yea, I wanted it gone. But I think I was 15 or something at the time. Not a great moment of forward thinking that part of my life.

DRS, if it should go, should go only once it has proven that it's necessary for the health of Legacy. Right now the format is in such a state of flux that even if you gave me the option of taking out Brainstorm right now I likely wouldn't do it. Too much is in the air to be anything close to this flippant with the list. Right now nothing, not a thing should change. Not for at lest 6 months, then unban something.

The point of Legacy is not to put everything we don't like on the list, it's to put what we can't contain on the list. Right now that means leave everything alone.

[Gheizen64]

No, the point is ubiquity is why it should go, and why some others cards should go as well, or have gone as well. TC and DTT are both good examples of this, combined with being big hitters. Also, Brainstorm, Git. Probe, and Ponder at least all cantrips, so it really makes sense that you are going to see a high % of "the best cantrip" in an eternal format. Ban those then you ban Preordain and Serum Visions next. You ban DRS and it's not like Deathblade is going to keep splashing for "the best mana-dork".

Ponder don't activate miracles, let you run clunky cards md (hello snt) , dodge discard or make 19 lands 3 color decks possible via reshuffling extra cards. Ban BS and you get a significant nerf on blue strategies and less of a reason to run blue as your base color. Blue still remain the top color in legacy. Ban DRS and you get better grave strats, less of a reason to run black, and people maybe playing noble hierarch (ex: noble bug) like people would probably play portent as a bs replacement were it to be banned. (which is to say:never since yet another card was banned in its place)