All B/R update speculation.

[MorphBerlin]

Griselbrand is the least Problem with flash. It can kill at instant speed for 1U. That's worlds apart from the 3-card combos of S&T + Omniscience + draw or dropping a Emrakul/Griselturd

Whatever it is, the card is broken as hell. I doubt they will ever consider unbanning it.

[Lemnear]

Whatever it is, the card is broken as hell. I doubt they will ever consider unbanning it.

The card is adding nothing to the format. Its just an even more ridiculous S&T variant.

[Fox]

1u Draw 14, cast Shallow Grave seems good.

For the record this isn't how Flash works. There is no priority between putting the creature on the battlefield and paying its cost reduced by up to . Let us suppose for a moment that you Flash in Elesh Norn, she will die before SBAs are checked - no creatures will die to the Massacre-effect. The creatures you are looking for would need to have ETB or on-death triggers (Protean Hulk, Worldspine Wurm, etc...).

Edit: as @Julian23 notes below, Flash is probably the most reliable combo card when it comes to winning on the spot. Moreover, you can also run Pacts given how reliably quick that kill is.

[Julian23]

Currently, storm decks now have some considerable hate like Chalice, Thorn, Thalia etc., to get through, and are being played nowhere near as much as they used to in my (limited) experience.
A lot has changed since 2007, it's not just tax effects, we now have stuff like Leyline of Sanctity that just stops the win-con for the deck cold (Disciple of the Vault)

Conveniently, Flash can win on your opponent's first Upkeep before they even get to play a land. Let alone dream about casting Thalia etc.

And regarding Leyline of Sanctity, targetting the opponent isn't really a requirement anyways. If anything you'd play Leyline of the Void to stop the Hulk from triggering.

But in all honesty, Flash is so crazy, I'd rate it's chances of unban as something like 1%.

[Crimhead]

"Brainstorm is fine because combo, control and beatdown use it, so therefore it's a pillar."

Prey tell, what did Survival enable again?

Nothing but survival decks. Nothing as different as Miracles is to Storm, or Grixis Delver is to Sneak Show. Brainstorm goes in decks that attack the game from entirely different angles.

Brainstorm decks tend to play the same game plan even I they don't see a Brainstorm. They're just a little clunky. Survival decks don't play the same basic game plan when they don't have access to their namesake card, because Survival is the strategy.

Whether you think BS should be banned or Survival should come back I'm not going to argue. But comparing the two cards in terms of the diversity of the decks they support is Ill conceived.

[Jain_Mor]

That same reasoning applies to fetchlands right? Except they support an even wider variety of decks consistency wise. I think comparing brainstorm to fetchlands is a bit disengenious because "fetchlands" are colourless and brainstorm isn't. Like I said if ONE fetchland became extremely prominent then that would indicate a deeper power level issue in the format.

Finally regarding what Lemnear said, banning all fetchlands because of the power boost they give to brainstorm and ponder is pure hyperbole right?

[Dice_Box]

Brainstorm again? Don't ever change y'all.

[Lemnear]

Brainstorm again? Don't ever change y'all.

You saw who the cat dragged in, right? ;)

That same reasoning applies to fetchlands right? Except they support an even wider variety of decks consistency wise. I think comparing brainstorm to fetchlands is a bit disengenious because "fetchlands" are colourless and brainstorm isn't. Like I said if ONE fetchland became extremely prominent then that would indicate a deeper power level issue in the format.

Finally regarding what Lemnear said, banning all fetchlands because of the power boost they give to brainstorm and ponder is pure hyperbole right?

Its disengenius if you call a 2/3/3 split of Polluted Delta, Misty Rainforest and Flooded Strand, which have effectively the same effect, less important for the performance of Legacy Decks than 4 Brainstorms, just because one runs 3 Flooded Strands instead of 4 among your 8 fetchlands.

So, if one bitches about the blue cardselection in Legacy, you have to go to the root of the power of the cantrips and not just cut one head of the hydra and see how SDT+Ponder+Fetchlands would dominate Legacy post-brainstorm. Its the Survival-Fallacy of banning Vengevine instead of Survival itself, just waiting for the next Creature to push Survival over the top. The joke however is, that no one is honest enough that Fetchlands turn on Brainstorm/Ponder/SDT, because everyone loves their fetchlands more than they hate blue cardselection, so they blame the Vengevine-card

[Dice_Box]

So, if one bitches about the blue cardselection in Legacy, you have to go to the root of the power of the cantrips and not just cut one head of the hydra and see how SDT+Ponder+Fetchlands would dominate Legacy post-brainstorm. Its the Survival-Fallacy of banning Vengevine instead of Survival itself, just waiting for the next Creature to push Survival over the top. The joke however is, that no one is honest enough that Fetchlands turn on Brainstorm/Ponder/SDT, because everyone loves their fetchlands more than they hate blue cardselection, so they blame the Vengevine-card

The difference here, between Vengevine and Cantrips, is that you can argue that Wizards may print another Vengevine and have a leg to stand on. They will never, under current leadership, print another Preordain much less Ponder or Brainstorm.

[Jain_Mor]

Well sure they are kind of all interchangable because of blue dominance in blue decks, and blue prominence in the format.. That's kind of want I mean.

I would say brainstorm and ponder abuse fetchlands. Fetchlands don't abuse those cantrips. Survival can abuse vengevine and creatures like it. Vengevine doesn't abuse survival... Show n Tell abuses Emrakul, Emrakul doesn't abuse Show n Tell. I don't think that is semantics either, the distinction seems self evident to me.

Yes the cantrip issue would be neutered somewhat if all fetchlands were banned, but that's a rediculous scenario to create. And would bring almost the whole format of legacy down instead the most prominent of the 5 colours. Like Dice says, WotC sees one mana library manipulation cantrips as a mistake (bannings in modern and no printings in recent times) but sees fetchlands as acceptable enablers for colour consistency.

I'm not really advocating a brainstorm ban, the format seems to have become more colour diverse and less brainstorm centric recently (and yes I'm comfortable saying I see colour diversity as something to consider for health in a format, it is an integral part of the game..) I just get super confused when people say "lol ban brainstorm? might as well ban fetchlands" it's almost the mirror arguement to "lol brainstorm is legal. so survival should be too" some weird false equivalences going on.

[Zombie]

The difference here, between Vengevine and Cantrips, is that you can argue that Wizards may print another Vengevine and have a leg to stand on. They will never, under current leadership, print another Preordain much less Ponder or Brainstorm.

Besides which I'd rather ban Vengevine so we can keep an interesting engine in the format. By the time Survival's presence is keeping too much stuff in the banlist, make the switch. It's not that difficult of a concept. The point is, ultimately, an interesting format, not some Holy Rules of Banlist Management. Those are secondary. And even then, some evaluation of whether all those busted tutor targets would, alone, bring some interesting gameplay. A lot of the time they don't because they're unplayable without the enabler.

[Lemnear]

Well sure they are kind of all interchangable because of blue dominance in blue decks, and blue prominence in the format.. That's kind of want I mean.

I would say brainstorm and ponder abuse fetchlands. Fetchlands don't abuse those cantrips. Survival can abuse vengevine and creatures like it. Vengevine doesn't abuse survival... Show n Tell abuses Emrakul, Emrakul doesn't abuse Show n Tell. I don't think that is semantics either, the distinction seems self evident to me.

Yes the cantrip issue would be neutered somewhat if all fetchlands were banned, but that's a rediculous scenario to create. And would bring almost the whole format of legacy down instead the most prominent of the 5 colours. Like Dice says, WotC sees one mana library manipulation cantrips as a mistake (bannings in modern and no printings in recent times) but sees fetchlands as acceptable enablers for colour consistency.

I'm not really advocating a brainstorm ban, the format seems to have become more colour diverse and less brainstorm centric recently (and yes I'm comfortable saying I see colour diversity as something to consider for health in a format, it is an integral part of the game..) I just get super confused when people say "lol ban brainstorm? might as well ban fetchlands" it's almost the mirror arguement to "lol brainstorm is legal. so survival should be too" some weird false equivalences going on.

Because they are interchangeable, it makes no sense to talk about ONE type of fetchlands as most decks run 6-8 of them to negate the impact of Wasteland, fix their colors, feed their DRS/Loam/more, enable t.hold or delve, support Ponder/Brainstorm/SDT, etc.

Banning Brainstorm is not really effective in pushing diversity as it potentially wipes our less linear decks in favor of those, who already have a high amount of redundancy and less situational cards. Are decks like Zoo or Jund significantly better positioned if they would have to play against SDT/Ponder/fetches than Brainstorm/Ponder/Fetches that it outweights the death of every situational card in the format including the decks which play them? Thats the question to ask, but we all have been through the discussion

[Zombie]

Banning Brainstorm is not really effective in pushing diversity as it potentially wipes our less linear decks in favor of those, who already have a high amount of redundancy and less situational cards. Are decks like Zoo or Jund significantly better positioned if they would have to play against SDT/Ponder/fetches than Brainstorm/Ponder/Fetches that it outweights the death of every situational card in the format including the decks which play them? Thats the question to ask, but we all have been through the discussion

Most Brainstorm decks are already redundant goodstuff packages built for the most part from general use cards.

[Jain_Mor]

Because they are interchangeable, it makes no sense to talk about ONE type of fetchlands as most decks run 6-8 of them to negate the impact of Wasteland, fix their colors, feed their DRS/Loam/more, enable t.hold or delve, support Ponder/Brainstorm/SDT, etc.

Banning Brainstorm is not really effective in pushing diversity as it potentially wipes our less linear decks in favor of those, who already have a high amount of redundancy and less situational cards. Are decks like Zoo or Jund significantly better positioned if they would have to play against SDT/Ponder/fetches than Brainstorm/Ponder/Fetches that it outweights the death of every situational card in the format including the decks which play them? Thats the question to ask, but we all have been through the discussion

Don't really have much to respond to this, it feels like you're talking to someone else in a conversation about something else. Decks play situational cards without brainstorm. I don't get what you're trying to say.

Like I said I don't want to talk about banning brainstorm. Just saying that banning fetchlands isn't equivocale to banning brainstorm, but it's something I see mentioned a lot (similarly to survival = brainstorm).

[Lemnear]

Don't really have much to respond to this, it feels like you're talking to someone else in a conversation about something else. Decks play situational cards without brainstorm. I don't get what you're trying to say.

It means that no one would bother with stuff like Griselbrand, Emrakul, Stifle, Terminus, etc if there was no option to get crap out of your hand.

[Jain_Mor]

It means that no one would bother with stuff like Griselbrand, Emrakul, Stifle, Terminus, etc if there was no option to get crap out of your hand.

I don't agree with that, so we can agree to disagree on this point too :)

[Dice_Box]

It means that no one would bother with stuff like Griselbrand, Emrakul, Stifle, Terminus, etc if there was no option to get crap out of your hand.

Elves runs Progenitus and its options for getting rid of it are discard and.... Zip. I guess I did hard cast that fucker once, but I was winning anyway.

Modern has a deck that kills with Emmy, uses discard to keep her where they want her, also has a deck that runs Grizzlebees too. No Brainstorm as far as I know. Format is different I know, but it challenges your idea. An example I suppose. Stifle? It's somewhat gone anyway. Saving it is not really a debate about Brainstorm so much as it is about the changes the formats gone though over time.

As for Terminus, good riddance.

[nevilshute]

Elves runs Progenitus and its options for getting rid of it are discard and.... Zip. I guess I did hard cast that fucker once, but I was winning anyway.

Modern has a deck that kills with Emmy, uses discard to keep her where they want her, also has a deck that runs Grizzlebees too. No Brainstorm as far as I know. Format is different I know, but it challenges your idea. An example I suppose. Stifle? It's somewhat gone anyway. Saving it is not really a debate about Brainstorm so much as it is about the changes the formats gone though over time.

As for Terminus, good riddance.

Elves only has to run 1 Progenitus due to the nature of Natural Order and Green Sun. Sneak Show runs upward of 8 fatties... Not really a meaningful comparison

[Lemnear]

Elves only has to run 1 Progenitus due to the nature of Natural Order and Green Sun. Sneak Show runs upward of 8 fatties... Not really a meaningful comparison

Elves HAS to run ZERO (multicolor) 8cc+ Fatties for its strategy. Can't say the same for SneakShow

[Dice_Box]

Elves HAS to run ZERO (multicolor) 8cc+ Fatties for its strategy. Can't say the same for SneakShow

Mono Red Sneak Attack. Tell me where the Brainstorm is in that deck and I am sure it also runs a few cards it can't shuffle back.