View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #18961
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

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  2. #18962

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    How do you keep decks "out of card selection" if they simply play Preordain+Ponder+Probe? How is that card selection less superior to anything other colors can provide in terms of card selection?

    Most of the meta these days is keen on dropping DRS T1 or T2 after double cantripping anyways. How does replacing Brainstorm with Preordain change that? All you do is bringing various clunky combo decks down a tier with next to zero effect on the already dominating decks in the format.
    I don't want to put 0 card selection disrtupting control decks strategy.
    Replacing Brainstorm with preordain is a significant lowering on power level of card that does card selection.

    Scry 2 and draw 1sorcery is very different from draw 3 and put 2 on the top, istant. This is what i mean in slow down, not stop the motor, just slow down.

    Same for combos.

    Also some good creatures are needed, to let aggro live, but this maybe is easier once that the meta is slowed.

  3. #18963

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zulabnar View Post
    I believe that to grow the format Wiz has to make more diverisification in deckbuilding and deck strategies.
    To cut the conversation, a good way to grow is to make aggro viable again
    To do this they have to:
    - Print good creature (good rapport cc strenght, and good ability) not blue.
    - Slow down of at least 1 turn the efficiency of control\tempo strategies (to permit creature to swing and to play creature with cc > 2)

    First Option: Print good creatures

    Th last good creatures printed to sprint the race are ..... DELVER and TNN that are Blue. This is pretty stupid, because good creature should be green, or red, not blue. Was a big error. Like printing a green cantrip or counterspell, better than blue existing ones.

    Also Wiz printed Eldrazi, that is another pretty stupid move, because You could do the same with existing colors. But at least You have an aggro deck (very unconistant).

    The problem is: if WIZ print cheap cc creature they will fit in blue shell deck, generating another aggro\blue deck, that is not what the meta need to grow. The meta needs aggro deck. Player loves aggro deck.




    ABout the second option Slow down of at least 1 turn the efficiency of control\tempo strategies
    I think that banning brainstorm is a good way to keep control deck a little out of card selection. Nowadays control deck can choose with a lot of cantrips what to draw. The old keeper in T1 draws a lot to control, and was full of tutors to chose the solution. Now the same in legacy, the card selection permitted by ponder\brainstorm\azcanta\Jace\preordain is too much. Infact sometimes also UGx deck does not play Sylvan Library, that was an house for card selection for years (and a good reason to play green) now is no more efficient.

    At the same time banning Brainstorm slow down combo decks, for te same reason of card selection.

    This is why i think that banning brainstorm is good for legacy -> slow down the format and permit aggro deck to exist.
    Eldrazi and burn are the aggro decks of the format. Perhaps even merfolk. Sorry but, your analysis is pretty wrong. And funny how you said you want a creature to "slow down tempo / control strategies" when that card literally exists (thalia).

    Creatures printed after delver- thalia, guardian of thraben, Deathrite shaman, young pyromancer, ediolon of the great revel, gurmag angler, all the eldrazi...

    Eldrazi has been a DTB for a while, so not sure what consistency issues you're really talking about.

  4. #18964

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Are we really comparing Brainstorm to Mishra's Workshop?

    Also, no one has said Chalice of the Void is killing Legacy - that card is terminally boring and high variance, sure, but it has an important role in that it preys on some of the hyper-efficient strategies that are very good in Legacy. I'd love to see it banned on a personal level, but I understand and appreciate why it isn't.

  5. #18965

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by rlesko View Post
    Eldrazi has been a DTB for a while, so not sure what consistency issues you're really talking about.
    People have a fallacious notion that the manner in which a deck losses is somehow more important than the frequency in which that deck loses.
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  6. #18966

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    My issue with Legacy is that if I sit down from someone playing Delver, Grixis, 4c, SnT, ANT, Miracles, ect your game plan is the same. You win condition is not and people will argue nuance but I am past that, your all doing the same shit with the same goal. Play the same core cards that do the same core thing with the same core outcome.

    Now sure, your going to say SnT and ANT aren't the same deck, argue nuance, but I'm talking about "Tap Island, fiddle myself until I find what I need, shuffle my library." They all do it, it's boring and I'm well past pretending to think anything will change.
    Fiddling with cantrip is not the "game plan" (aka, strategy). How you find the cards you need is purely tactical. Your actual strategy is centered around which cards you are trying to find, and how you employ the cards you do find.

    There is nothing nuanced about the differences between ANT and Miracles. They have radically different matches and approach the meta from a radically different angle. One deck has a game plan to blow the opponent out faster than the opponent can stabilise. The other has a game plan to frustrate the opponent and slowly grind them out of resources. Real subtle.

    They don't even use cantrip the same. Storm likes cantrips to chain a bunch of spells and up the storm count. Miracles wants to find a good "top deck", often letting it just sit there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    As for objective statements, haha ha... I was never claiming to be objective..
    I would say you are making every effort not to be.

    That, or you are so flustered with the state of affairs that you've completely lost the ability to think about Legacy in objective terms.

    Take a little break. 6-12 months without Legacy and you'll be chomping at the bit to strip your opponent of all their lands and all their creatures. :)
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  7. #18967
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The entitlement in this thread regarding a children's card game is silly. If you feel too old for magic, that's probably good and it's probably better for is all to quit in the long run. If you find yourself too despondent to continue, count your blessings, sell your well-appreciated cards and just play candyland.

  8. #18968

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I sympathize with a lot of the burnt out sentiments I'm seeing. I think the biggest issue I have with how the format is managed at the moment is the lack of transparency from WOTC to the legacy community. I don't play other formats, so maybe this feeling is universal, but as a legacy player I feel like the amount Wizards keeps the community in the dark about is staggering and hard to understand. Why don't B/R updates always have short summaries of their thoughts for every format? Would this hurt anything? Where are general comments about format intentions and health? I don't understand how this sort of communication with the public would hurt WOTC's bottom line at all, and I think players would have more faith in the company and the game. The secondary market may have rises and falls due to comments if they did this sort of thing, but isn't that supposed to be outside of Wizard's concerns anyway? When I see the conspiracy theories about pushing people out of legacy and and vintage toward modern and standard with printings I'm generally skeptical, but the lack of communication with the player base is strange to me and generally makes me feel like Wizard's may have dubious intentions in some regards, even if its just laziness.

    As to format health, I see a few problems. When I started playing legacy I felt like there were clear demographics for decks (nuances abound, but still in the minority overall). You could play a blue aggro shell like Delver, where you have consistent card selection and premium counterspells, you could play a blue control shell like Miracles, where you grind harder and have to play tightly to stabilize and beat draws for going over time, you could play combo and accept poor draws to variance and out-right losses to hate from mostly non-blue decks (like Thalia and Leyline of the Void) but you get to have the lottery of occasional unfair insta-wins, or you could play non-blue decks and accept the loss of counterspells and card selection but have the upper hand in card quality (bigger badder dudes, nasty enchantments, wasteland locks, etc). I think a handful of cards have seriously disrupted this balance, and made the appeal for non-blue decks almost non-existent (with perhaps the exception of chalice of the void and blood moon decks, which are specifically targeting the blue meta). Specifically deathrite shaman, true-name nemesis, and monastery mentor. I think Leovold was printed in the wrong colors as well and is an offensive garnish to these other cards, but I don't think he is outright as troublesome.

    I don't think true-name nemesis can be banned, as much as I really really hate the card and wish it wasn't printed. I agree with an earlier sentiment that this allows for a slippery slope where cards are banned due to their "fun" factor, and as much as people hate cards like Ponder or Chalice I feel heavily that if you removed these cards and disrupted the ability for people to have their consistency or to have choices in variation of decks ranging from prison to combo that the format would become very stale and/or have much larger swings in variance. I think this is a dark path to tread. The problem with true-name other than its over-the-top lack of interactivity, as has been pointed out, is that this card seriously hurts non true-name aggro strategies. This often means non-blue aggro strategies, as true-name is clearly top tier blue aggro. So what happens? Well, as a non-blue player you sacrificed card selection to play higher quality cards, but now your blue opponent with card selection consistently sees their true-name which completely invalidates your strategies on the ground and is THE higher quality aggro creature. This is intensely frustrating, you've sacrificed card selection and counterspells for power but now you get neither. Then, as an added bonus, your blue opponents also have sideboard cards which invalidate all your aggro dudes because of their own need to deal with other blue player's TNN (mostly in the form of black sweepers currently, which are all intensely effective against non-blue aggro strategies). I don't know how to solve the problem that is this card. Honestly I just want a statement from WOTC admitting that it was an offensive mistake that is regrettably too hard to be made right. I don't think I'll ever get that statement, as again WOTC seems ever reluctant to share their thoughts or intentions with the public.

    Deathrite shores up where TNN leaves off. Generally the other angle of attack against blue aggro strategies is their dependency on greedy mana, and deathrite is often a MB outright answer to mana denial strategies. Now not only does my blue opponent have the better badder 3 drop to kill me with, they get the better birds of paradise to accelerate into that 3-drop too, making my hand of 3 wastelands feel woefully inadequate to a turn-1 DRS. But perhaps if you flood the ground with dudes the TNN can't afford to connect? Well then the DRS will ping you to death during the standstill, and TNN will swing in unimpeded in the last turn (or the board of pyros, or anglers, or w/e). Do you pay burn? Your opponent now has 4 must answer threats in the maindeck to your strategy, that also kill you after they stabilize on life. This is the real problem with DRS. Its another cog in the chain of invalidating non-blue strategies, which generally need to fight you on the ground or attack your mana or your life (burn). I also dislike how this card hits Storm and RUG so hard personally, but I don't think these are the real problems with this card.

    Monastery Mentor gave blue control the other two pieces of the base strategy triangle: aggro and combo. What are the weaknesses for blue control generally? Inability to close out quickly against fast aggro, or recover when you have a lack of resources. Monastery Mentor can end the game on turn 5 no sweat. This is an intense change in tempo for a control deck. And when you are down to 2 cards in control on an empty board one mentor and a brainstorm can completely end the game for your opponent. Suddenly two cards for control turns into the ability to go wide over 1-2 turns against your aggro opponent, and this is frankly insane. Mentor alone takes every supposed downside of being a blue control shell and removes them. Its one thing to lose to a control deck over 20 turns, another to lose to a lucky Terminus, but it is quite a bad feeling as an aggro creature deck to out grind your control opponent completely only to be overrun by tokens 2 turns later out of no where. The amount of resources a non-blue aggro deck has to put in to accomplish these sort of things in comparison to the blue player is just becoming unreasonable.

    So really that's my two cents overall. I don't think the format is un-interactive, or fundamentally broken, but I do think it severely punishes non-blue aggro strategies, or non-blue non-chalice control strategies. Of course you can still win with these decks, legacy has inherently powerful cards and if you have the right selection of cards and your opponent doesn't, or your caliber of play is significantly higher, you'll pull through. But non-blue non-combo players consistently have to look across the table at their blue opponents and see that the blue player is able to negate or excel beyond their own strategies, all while doing so with more consistency and control due to cantrips and counterspells, and often less cards invested (one true name versus a handful of white creatures, one deathrite vs ports and wastelands, one mentor vs... and so on and so on).

    I think this is a delicate time for the format. It is starting to become hard to imagine that 3-drops can get any better, and I think printing better non-blue answers is a slippery slope. When cards are doing too much for their cmc I don't think the best approach is to print more cards that do even more than they should for the same or better cmc. Eventually you just get a 1cmc creature that says "Tap,Sac this creature: win the game". I mean, it can be countered, stifled, and plowed. That makes that a reasonable card right? Since the format can technically adapt?

    I'm nervous a DRS banning will end up looking like that recent standard banning, where another handful of cards had to be banned as a result of 1-2 cards needing to go. I'm just not clear on where the format should move to when there is a handful of cards that imo should simply not have existed to begin with.

    EDIT: As a follow up, I would like to say that I think that eternal formats should be designed to be more than playing the most powerful individual cards in the game. I feel like higher premiums should be put on designing and releasing cards that interact with one another to do busted things, or that create incremental value toward a win. Knight of the Reliquary and Wasteland, Stage and Depths, Vial and Port, etc, all at least require two cards to really begin to feel threatening (even Show and Tell at least requires that you also have another threat in hand, and accepts that your opponent may have something busted to put in as well). Generic cards which often decide the fate of the game on their own like mentor or TNN make the stage of the game uninteresting, stagnant, and harder to interact with as it is much easier to protect a single card than a combination of 2-3. I understand that this is the format for powerful things, but I would also hope as the game has evolved that so would the design and interactions between cards, instead of moving to a format of single card hosers. Lets enjoy the mistakes of the past without increasing their number into the future. My opinion anyway. May you all enjoy any games you play to the utmost

  9. #18969
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimhead View Post
    I would say you are making every effort not to be.

    That, or you are so flustered with the state of affairs that you've completely lost the ability to think about Legacy in objective terms.

    Take a little break. 6-12 months without Legacy and you'll be chomping at the bit to strip your opponent of all their lands and all their creatures. :)
    Your right, I made no attempt in my "Opinion" piece to be objective. The question was "Is anyone dissatisfied?" not "Does anyone wish to make objective points about a card that can not be touched and bang their head against a wall for no reason at all?"

    I see no reason to be objective, we have been told the protection of Legacy's cancer is a subjective choice, because objective stats will have no impact. Don't tell me to be objective anymore, we have been officially told that's not going to mean shit. Its easy to say "Be Objective" when the ref has decided before the game is played who is going to win and you are on the winning side.

    Oh and as for time off, if I take 6 months off I honestly feel that at the end of that there will be no Legacy to play locally. Because of both the prementioned split of the player base and because others have decided to tap out for their own separate reasons. Seriously, those of you who live in the states and can drive to SCG or GPs a few times a year have no idea how lucky you are.
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  10. #18970

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Its easy to say "Be Objective" when the ref has decided before the game is played who is going to win and you are on the winning side.
    Not sure if you mean me...

    I don't think I'm on the "winning side" here.
    • A BS ban shouldn't directly hurt Lands. if anything it would soften the competition (and push combo towards Elves).
    • I don't agree BS is a cancer - or that the format is even sick at all. But if there is a problem with Legacy (Grixis and Czech being too good), I don't think BS is the right ban.
      However, while I don't think BS is currently ban-worthy, I alsolutely don't believe it should be exempt from consideration! Nothing should be. That's not how I want to format to be managed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Oh and as for time off, if I take 6 months off I honestly feel that at the end of that there will be no Legacy to play locally. Because of both the prementioned split of the player base and because others have decided to tap out for their own separate reasons. Seriously, those of you who live in the states and can drive to SCG or GPs a few times a year have no idea how lucky you are.
    Eastern Canada is not the best either. Toronto is a ~20+ hour drive. The biggest event I've been to locally was 64 players, but that was over 5 years ago. I'm lucky to play in a 20 person tournament, the monthlies are usually fewer.

    I know I can be abrasive because we disagree so polarly. But I am sorry you are burning out. I appreciate your contributions, and I actually kind of like you. As much as I can like a cantankerous internet stranger whom I have probably pissed off more than once. I hope you can find joy and peace of mind. :)
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  11. #18971
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    When can we get Necro back?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  12. #18972
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    When can we get Necro back?
    Necro is likely a bad idea, but as someone that loves bad ideas and Necropotence, this.
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  13. #18973
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    When can we get Necro back?
    Turn One Deathrite Shaman, Turn Two Necropotence...

    That sounds like a minor upgrade to Liliana, TNN, Leovold & Co.

    /s
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  14. #18974
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Turn One Deathrite Shaman, Turn Two Necropotence...

    That sounds like a minor upgrade to Liliana, TNN, Leovold & Co.

    /s
    I mean we're already sacrificing cards at the altar of one card, and Necro has work experience. Some competition shouldn't hurt... much.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear
    (On Innistrad)
    Yeah, an insanely powerful block which put the "derp!" factor in Legacy completely over the top.

  15. #18975
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    If "no wish to grow the format" means "won't ban Brainstorm", how does banning Brainstorm grow the format?
    No wish to grow the format is completely a comment about the tweet quoted and nothing else. It has nothing to do with any cards in the format and everything to do with Aaron stating they manage Legacy only for those who play it. That's a fair statement to me, I do not have anything harsh to say about it but it is an admission that they seek no growth in Legacy. They have placed Legacy in a holding pattern and plan only to do what they have to to keep those who already play it happy. No effort is put in to do anything else. With the price of Tabernacle in mind of late I guess that is a fair thing to do, I mean we have a situation right now where a card in Legacy is worth more than 8 of the power 9. Why grow what you can not support?

    Wizards right now only cares about us in as much as they once made a format called Legacy and now they have to keep it on the books. The same way the US keeps the USS Pueblo on the books while its in enemy hands. It really is only symbolic at this point and it would be best for everyone if the issue would just somehow go away. Oh wait, it has, because they have Modern to worry about.
    Last edited by Dice_Box; 04-20-2018 at 10:27 PM.
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  16. #18976

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    No wish to grow the format is completely a comment about the tweet quoted and nothing else. It has nothing to do with any cards in the format and everything to do with Aaron stating they manage Legacy only for those who play it. That's a fair statement to me, I do not have anything harsh to say about it but it is an admission that they seek no growth in Legacy. They have placed Legacy in a holding pattern and plan only to do what they have to to keep those who already play it happy. No effort is put in to do anything else. With the price of Tabernacle in mind of late I guess that is a fair thing to do, I mean we have a situation right now where a card in Legacy is worth more than 8 of the power 9. Why grow what you can not support?

    Wizards right now only cares about us in as much as they once made a format called Legacy and now they have to keep it on the books. The same way the US keeps the USS Pueblo on the books while its in enemy hands. It really is only symbolic at this point and it would be best for everyone if the issue would just somehow go away. Oh wait, it has, because they have Modern to worry about.
    How. Are. Wizards. Supposed. To. Grow. Legacy?

    It was heavily implied in your posts that "Legacy cannot grow unless they ban brainstorm"
    If this is in fact not what you mean then you need to be more specific

    "They have placed legacy in a holding pattern" if you don't mean "they are refusing to ban Brainstorm" then what have they done to place legacy in a holding pattern?

    At the moment you're just having a vague sky-is-falling whinge, it's impossible to have a conversation about this with you because you aren't even saying anything

  17. #18977
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    That's because I was answering a question not talking about banning anything. I already said that. If your not going to read my posts don't complain when you don't understand what I am saying.

    Question;
    Is anyone dissatisfied.

    Answer;
    Yes, this is why.

    You;
    What do you mean they have put Legacy into a holding pattern.

    Me;
    There is a tweet that says at this point that the format is being managed only for those who play it and have no intention of doing more than that.

    You;
    Wait, aren't you talking about banning Brainstorm.

    Me;
    No I was talking about the tweet, that of which I have already explained.

    You;
    Your impossible to understand.

    Me;
    Then read the part where I said I was answering a question not talking about banning something.

    You;
    Wait your not talking about Brainstorm.

    Me;
    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    I'm not arguing for or against a ban here.
    Turns out yea, it's fairly hard to talk to someone when your only reading part of their posts.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
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  18. #18978

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    My problem is that you haven't been able to articulate why the tweet (or more specifically the WOTC stance in the tweet) is bad.

    Here was my initial assumption of your thought process
    1. WotC says "we manage the format for the people that play it"
    2. The "people that play it" include people who like Brainstorm (or DRS or whatever)
    3. Therefore wizards are stating they won't ban Brainstorm
    4. By not banning Brainstorm (or some other card to shake up the format), wizards are limiting the growth of the format, by excluding the vast untapped player pool that hates Brainstorm, or by alienating all the people that dislike Delver mirrors, etc

    This argument at least makes sense, the reason why I was trying to take you to task over this is because I think that point 4 is unrealistic/wrong.

    Note that by 'growth of the format' I assume we both mean tournament attendance.

    However you have since clarified that your disdain for the tweet has nothing to do with whether cards are banned or not. Therefore you must think that the tweet indicates WotC are taking actions (or inactions) to 'place legacy in a growth-stifling holding pattern' other than BR list changes. However you haven't said what you think any of these actions (or inactions) are.
    Possible ideas:
    - "It means WotC won't change their reserved list policy". Possibly, although WotC stance on this was pretty clear before the tweet and part of making sure legacy remains enjoyable for the 'players that do play it' is ensuring that the game doesn't die, so I don't know if you can even make this connection
    - "It means WotC won't design cards with legacy in mind". Possibly, but WotC has basically never done this ever and has never given any indication that they ever would, so I don't know why the tweet would suddenly make you upset
    - "It means WotC will de-emphasize legacy tournaments in the tournament schedule". I'm sure that 'players who currently play it' obviously want to play in tournaments, so I don't know if you can reach this conclusion from the tweet

    TL:DR If you don't see the tweet as having a connection to BR announcements then I can't understand why you have a problem with it

  19. #18979
    Some dipshit of a Moderator.
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    No wish to grow the format is completely a comment about the tweet quoted and nothing else. It has nothing to do with any cards in the format and everything to do with Aaron stating they manage Legacy only for those who play it. That's a fair statement to me, I do not have anything harsh to say about it but it is an admission that they seek no growth in Legacy. They have placed Legacy in a holding pattern and plan only to do what they have to to keep those who already play it happy. No effort is put in to do anything else. With the price of Tabernacle in mind of late I guess that is a fair thing to do, I mean we have a situation right now where a card in Legacy is worth more than 8 of the power 9. Why grow what you can not support?

    Wizards right now only cares about us in as much as they once made a format called Legacy and now they have to keep it on the books. The same way the US keeps the USS Pueblo on the books while its in enemy hands. It really is only symbolic at this point and it would be best for everyone if the issue would just somehow go away. Oh wait, it has, because they have Modern to worry about.
    Seriously, read the posts.
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  20. #18980

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I do not have anything harsh to say about it... Seriously, read the posts.
    OK

    they seek no growth in Legacy
    No effort is put in
    Wizards right now only cares about us in as much as
    The format is mismanaged
    I have watched the soul of Legacy go
    There is nothing left in Legacy that is good
    NO NEGATIVITY HERE

    If WotC decided tomorrow "WOW we need/want to grow legacy", what should they do?
    If you can't provide an answer to this then just move along

    If you're just bored of legacy then that's fine but don't make posts with claims like "the format is mismanaged" and then retreat behind "hurr durr it's just my opinion dude and actually I have no problem with WotC" when pressed to explain them

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