View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #22141
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    For a green creature to be good, it needs to have some type of defense against spot removal and hopefully sweepers, and needs evasion or to be larger than the other creatures it will encounter.

    Thoughts would be a creature that leaves a token behind or re-casts itself if it dies by a sweeper.

    A mechanic called "Hibernate" or "Retreat" would be cool - something like, "if this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, remove it from the game with X slumber counters on it. During each of your upkeeps, remove a slumber counter. When the last slumber counter is removed, you may cast creature without paying its mana cost (and possibly creature gains haste).

    The idea behind "Hibernate" is that spot removal wouldn't kill larger green creatures, it would just make them disappear for a few turns until they came back to fight again. Something to make STP sting a little less.
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  2. #22142
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Yeah. I'm still waiting for a playable white creature with Blinking Spirit's activated ability on it. Hell, there were times when I'd have played it in D&T as it is, if only its CMC were 3 instead of 4...

  3. #22143
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Wizard View Post
    What "happened" to Thrun was that it can't beat Tarmogoyf, Gurmag Angler, Reality Smasher, Delver of Secrets, and True-Name Nemesis, so when spend 4 when you can spend less for better? That's why I'm saying, the green creature needs haste and power 6 so that it is one of the biggest threats in Legacy.
    Size may not be enough. Thrun, the Last Troll was a thing long after Tarmogoyf and Delver. Bigger creatures like Angler (at the time Tombstalker) aren't a big deal, because you just stuck a Sword or Jitte on Thrun. TNN is the nail in the coffin. It comes down cheaper, dodges more, carries equipment better, can be cast with Islands, and even has a relevant tribe.

    TNN kils design space for "hexproof green beater" because blue can just do it better. TNN also demands play of answers (Terminus, Council's Judgment, Liliana) that incidentally wreck any green hexproof indestructible fatty too.

    Yeah. I'm still waiting for a playable white creature with Blinking Spirit's activated ability on it. Hell, there were times when I'd have played it in D&T as it is, if only its CMC were 3 instead of 4...
    Hey now, Blinking Spirit was tier 1 playable... in 1995.

    Then they had to give blue nicer things: Rainbow Efreet and then Morphling

  4. #22144
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Not sure how relevant this is but Brightling is the new Blinking Spirit, right? Close enough at least.

  5. #22145

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Honestly, if you've played and observed the Legacy metagame long enough you'll know that no creature printing would ever change anything about the color balance in Legacy.

    Legacy is simply a format in which many of the usual standards of card power levels and evaluations don't apply in the same way. Inherently Legacy is a format shaped around what we often subsume as 'unfair' strategies, aka the combo decks. Decks that are able to kill faster than any 'fair' mix of creatures and spells are the reason why the format is what it is. The reason why those unfair strategies aren't dominating the format is because, thankfully, you don't have to join them to beat them. In other words, there are 'fair' decks that have the tools to stop the unfair things.

    Apart from combo hosers, which basically anyone can just slap into the sideboards to beat the unfair decks, the fair decks are constructed in a way that gives them game against the unfair ones. In order to achieve that, tier 1 fair decks have to either play the only way to interact favorably with unfair decks while still being relevant in other matchups, aka counter spells, or they have to specifically hate against the combo decks while also hurting the first type of fair decks with cards like Chalice or Thalia. This is why you have to play either an unfair deck, a deck that intrinsically hates on unfair decks, or a deck with the only color that gets counter spells, aka blue. That's how Legacy has been the last 15 years and that's not going to change anytime soon.

    With that in mind, the question of how 'good' a new creature would have to be in order to change the color balance is simply void. There are only 3 types of creatures in Legacy: Combo creatures such as Griselbrand or Painter's Servant, hate creatures such as Thalia, and 'normal' creatures which the blue fair decks will use to eventually kill people with. If we're discussing efficiently costed green creatures here, chances are we're limited to only the third category of creatures here. And in that category, it honestly barely matters what exactly your creature does. It will win you the game against combo if you had enough ways to stop their unfair stuff, no matter if it's a Batterskull, Delver, Goyf, Angler, Mentor, Arcanist or whatever. So, if we print something that totally outclasses all of those existing 'fair' creatures, all that will do is make it so all the fair blue decks will play it. And if it gets a mana cost that is too prohibitive for blue decks, it will not see play at all.

    let's say they printed an op creature for GG. Let's say it's a 5/5 pro blue, can't be countered with no added drawbacks. What would happen? Well, not as much as you'd think, in all honesty. People would try to play it in UG shells. If that works, it would make Tarmogoyf obsolete. If it doesn't work, it wouldn't see much play outside of maybe exactly Maverick as a 1-off. Unfair decks still wouldn't care at all if they get attacked by this, Delver, Goyf or what have you. The non-blue fair decks also wouldn't care because the keywords on it are irrelevant and make it just another Goyf. Only the fair blue decks would care for their fair blue mirrors, and in those you'd either see the card on both sides or on none, depending on how the mana situation works out. Make it a 6/6 and I still don't think much would change. We're only getting close to an actual gamebreaker when we approach the point where it has so much power that it starts racing combo decks all by itself, at which point they do start caring about it. But that wouldn't be until we're at least in 7/7 or 8/8 territory. That would mean a 3-turn clock by itself and a possible turn 3 kill when paired with a turn 1 Delver and a Bolt. Anything lower than that wouldn't change much about the overall color balance in Legacy. No non-blue non-Thalia/Chalice decks would emerge and beat up on the blue decks. Until they give us 8/8s for 2 or at least 5/5s for 2 with Hexproof no critter will break the metagame open. And quite frankly I think that's a good thing.

  6. #22146
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Izor View Post
    With that in mind, the question of how 'good' a new creature would have to be in order to change the color balance is simply void. There are only 3 types of creatures in Legacy: Combo creatures such as Griselbrand or Painter's Servant, hate creatures such as Thalia, and 'normal' creatures which the blue fair decks will use to eventually kill people with. If we're discussing efficiently costed green creatures here, chances are we're limited to only the third category of creatures here. And in that category, it honestly barely matters what exactly your creature does. It will win you the game against combo if you had enough ways to stop their unfair stuff, no matter if it's a Batterskull, Delver, Goyf, Angler, Mentor, Arcanist or whatever. So, if we print something that totally outclasses all of those existing 'fair' creatures, all that will do is make it so all the fair blue decks will play it. And if it gets a mana cost that is too prohibitive for blue decks, it will not see play at all.
    You had great analysis. I think though if you want to push green you need to make a 2.5 creature - an effective hate creature that has a quicker clock than white hate creatures. Just have to figure out what type of hate creatures you can print for green that aren't niche GSZ targets.
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  7. #22147
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I thought Questing Beast had a good showing as a strong green creature.

    White should capitalize on the powerful 2 drop slot, like Thalia and Tomik and the like.
    Green's space is better in the 4 mana creatures. The small green mana dorks support their casting, and at 4 mana you can afford to give a strong body with lots of text.

    If that means its just a GSZ target or relegated to Maverick, then I mean, okay.
    But Maverick is also an example of a whole host of strong green creatures that are not co-opted by the blue shell.

    So I don't know where the goalposts are. If it costs 2, then the most green you can make it is GG, which is annoying to splash, but if it's good enough, then people will find a way.
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  8. #22148

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    3/1 trample haste shroud for g.
    Crazed Nactl.

  9. #22149

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Questing Beast is a fringe playable 1-of in a GZS deck, which is fine, but nowhere near format warping.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    3/1 trample haste shroud for g.
    Crazed Nactl.
    Which won't happen because WotC can't reasonably print that into any set that is meant to be... you know... played as a set in some form and capacity. The only way to print a creature so powerful they would have to release that as some special promo that is only there to specifically fix Legacy... Even in Commander they made it cost 3 (TNN). And as soon as it costs 2 it's not good enough any more, because clocking for 3 and dying in every combat situation is already below par. Actually, I'm not even sure the exact card you posted would do much to shake up Legacy. All it would do is make blue decks even better, because the deck it will be best in is UGr/b Delver.

    See? Nothing printable will break that color balance, unless WotC specifically make it their prime goal to do so.

    A green creature that has Shroud/Hexproof and says 'players can't cast blue spells' on top of being miles above the curve, such as a 3/2 for 1 or a 4/4 for 2 at least. That's probably what it takes.

  10. #22150
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Izor View Post
    Questing Beast is a fringe playable 1-of in a GZS deck, which is fine, but nowhere near format warping.
    I don't get how format warping is the end goal. Everything you said is positive.

    It's playable;
    In a blue-less green deck;
    Not in excess enough to detract from the sum of the meta.

    It adds to the deck, which is different than bringing all other decks down.
    If because it doesn't alter the fabric of the format through it's very existence, it is a bad card, then I guess we're just having different conversations.
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  11. #22151
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    It's playable;
    In a blue-less green deck;
    Not in excess enough to detract from the sum of the meta.
    Look at the NicFit thread. NicFit doesn't even play it because it doesn't do enough for 4 mana.

    That's right, Questing Beast needs more card text to make it into a green ramp deck.

  12. #22152
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Well Nic Fit ramps right past 4 to 5 & 6, and you'll find better cards at those costs.
    Again, if the goal is to dream up some green creature that is an auto-include in every green deck but not any blue decks, that is silly.
    Questing Beast does just fine in Maverick, coming down off a Noble Hierarch or two isn't a nothing play.
    The advocacy should be for more cards like it, and give up on this nonsese idead of an "8/8 for G but your opponent gets to search you library and sideboard and collection for Islands and if they find any they kick you in the balls. Also hexproof" because people will just wear a cup and play it of a Trop.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
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  13. #22153
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Look at the NicFit thread. NicFit doesn't even play it because it doesn't do enough for 4 mana.

    That's right, Questing Beast needs {different} card text to make it into a green ramp deck.
    Highlighted what my opinion is.

    It's fighting for the same slot as something like Sigarda, Host of Herons as a creature that provides relevant abilities. EDIT: Ninja-ed by PirateKing.

    Honestly, take one of those combat abilities and change it to 'reach' and it's probably auto-include to fight Delver/block Marit Lage. Trample would have been more valuable than haste or vigilance as well, to help with TNN races. It's not that it isn't good enough, it's that it's abilities don't translate into Legacy specifically.
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  14. #22154

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Izor View Post
    Questing Beast is a fringe playable 1-of in a GZS deck, which is fine, but nowhere near format warping.



    Which won't happen because WotC can't reasonably print that into any set that is meant to be... you know... played as a set in some form and capacity. The only way to print a creature so powerful they would have to release that as some special promo that is only there to specifically fix Legacy... Even in Commander they made it cost 3 (TNN). And as soon as it costs 2 it's not good enough any more, because clocking for 3 and dying in every combat situation is already below par. Actually, I'm not even sure the exact card you posted would do much to shake up Legacy. All it would do is make blue decks even better, because the deck it will be best in is UGr/b Delver.

    See? Nothing printable will break that color balance, unless WotC specifically make it their prime goal to do so.

    A green creature that has Shroud/Hexproof and says 'players can't cast blue spells' on top of being miles above the curve, such as a 3/2 for 1 or a 4/4 for 2 at least. That's probably what it takes.
    A 3/1 that trades with any 1/X isn't too powerful for a supplemental set and the whole premise we're talking about is "how pushed does a green creature need to be"

  15. #22155
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Arasta showed promise, and Beast moreso as well.

    How about more relevant abilities?

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  16. #22156
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by sdematt View Post
    Arasta showed promise, and Beast moreso as well.

    How about more relevant abilities?



    Powerful Magic, but dies to board wipes, CJ, can die in combat. However, has relevant combat abilities against walkers (Haste, Hexproof), relevant creature based abilities (Deathtouch + option to add 1), and has the ability to once per game come back, no matter how many copies you play. Too OP?

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  17. #22157
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Dust off your Giant Solifuge's!!!
    Remember when we all thought it was 4/3 based on a bad spoiled photo and we were freaking out? Good times.

    Edit:

    Really left field but was trying to remember of other "wrong" spoilers that led to excitement and then disappointment (not fakes just blurry images or incorrect info)

    Moonlight Bargain was initially spoiled at 2BB
    Manaplasm was initially spoiled at 1G
    Eyes of the Wisent was initially spoiled as "whenever a player plays a spell"
    Wreak Havoc was initially spoiled at 1GR
    Slithermuse was initially alleged to have an evoke cost of 2U
    Rafiq of the Many was initially spoiled as a 3/4

    Anything else I forgot?
    Last edited by Cire; 01-30-2020 at 05:03 PM.
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  18. #22158
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Remember when Tarmogoyf was spoiled as a bad card?

    Or when the spoilers for Revised Serendib Efreet were still wrong a year after printing? Ok, maybe that one doesn't count as a spoiler anymore.

  19. #22159
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Remember when Tarmogoyf was spoiled as a bad card?

    Or when the spoilers for Revised Serendib Efreet were still wrong a year after printing? Ok, maybe that one doesn't count as a spoiler anymore.
    I still remember giving away the one I pulled because "It's just a dumb green creature. Isn't even that big."

  20. #22160

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cire View Post
    Eyes of the Wisent was initially spoiled as "whenever a player plays a spell"
    Jesus lol

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