All B/R update speculation.

[H]

Where was this?

Although it's always easy for someone to paint themselves as in the right in any given situation, so whenever I see "disgruntled employee" accounts from any company I always wonder exactly how slanted their account is.

https://adayintheloucks.wordpress.co...avingthedream/

Didn't read like that to me, but it was a while ago, so maybe I just don't remember it well...

[Finn]

The new narrative is that the data is inconclusive and people aren't innovating enough.

Have you noticed that there is no way to counter either of those positions? They are neither provable nor disprovable, as they are backed up by zero evidence for us to evaluate. I wonder if there is a proper label for such an argument.

How much more evidence do we need, really? If it looks like crap, smells like crap, and you are standing in a pasture, you have to really be on good LSD to continue to claim that you are surrounded by chocolate.

[Zombie]

The second one is especially odious because it's not even subjective, refuting it would require proving a negative.

[Aggro_zombies]

The new narrative is that the data is inconclusive and people aren't innovating enough.

Like everything else in the interminable debate surrounding blue and Brainstorm in Legacy, this narrative is literally years old. It just doesn't get trotted out all that often.

[danyul]

I dunno. I just thought it was silly to suggest apps or 3D printing or some other future tech as a solution to these problems. That's all I was trying to say. I think?

[Lemnear]

What exactly is the argument against the format terribly out of balance?

What "balance"? We had this a dozen times within weeks and we know it's not about strategic diversity, but about Tier 2 topdeck-depending strategies not making the cut, because certain users even call Elves a "blue" strategy because of it's tutoring and carddraw. It's absurd. The question isn't IF the format is very blue, but IF it hurts the popularity of the format. As long as GPs break records and various archtypes are playable, I wouldn't call it "terrible". I agree that Cruise formed a new aggressive, streamlined and boring linear shell, but we also see that shell being punished by combo decks lately. First signs that the format beings to adapt.

The new narrative is that the data is inconclusive and people aren't innovating enough.

No, your narrative is claiming to have metagame data by browsing top 8 lists. Lol

[Teveshszat]

danyul
I dunno. I just thought it was silly to suggest apps or 3D printing or some other future tech as a solution to these problems. That's all I was trying to say. I think?

Futrue tech? Apps are very normal and not really new. Don´t know what you want from 3D printing but an app is a very solid solution for the deck list problem. It will reduce the handwriting thing and also can support the R&D lab with design choices and data how often a certain card is played. Furthermore you can make it avaible for T2 too and you can generate income with comercials inside of the app.
If you make it mandantory, which is not a big problem concidering how much a smartphones the players have allready. No the argument that some don´t have a decent handy is not
valid because until you made an actual survey on the matter how many would have problems with the app you can´t say anything about the aceptance level.

So I say this would this so called futuree tech is what we need and maybe we should start in making it optional first and see how it works out.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Then stick your ad homien (and complaints about those) to yourself and avoid these "Magic nerds" by stop visiting the forum or, if it saves you from a heart attack, feel free to block me and others. ;)

I decided even better!
Realizing how this magical "entertainment" restrains me, how the dull metagame with its robotic belt conveyor decks tires me, how the omnipresent masonic art and concepts bother me, and how the whole community disgusts me, I finally sold even the last 300 cards.
Feel free to waste your life in unending battles on stack and whatnot. My three children deserve better father then an "I wanna feel the power through my veins" junkie that has a boner over a piece of cardboard designed by some obese Rosenwasser "game designer".

[twndomn]

I decided even better!
Realizing how this magical "entertainment" restrains me, how the dull metagame with its robotic belt conveyor decks tires me, how the omnipresent masonic art and concepts bother me, and how the whole community disgusts me, I finally sold even the last 300 cards.
Feel free to waste your life in unending battles on stack and whatnot. My three children deserve better father then an "I wanna feel the power through my veins" junkie that has a boner over a piece of cardboard designed by some obese Rosenwasser "game designer".

Wizard's focus has always been Standard and Limited, those formats are their cash cows. Yes, they pretend they care about Commander, but eternal formats are mostly loosely managed, if any. I would recommend you to lower your expectation on Magic and on life in general. You should know what I mean by that. You'll live your life happier that way.

[Lemnear]

I decided even better!
Realizing how this magical "entertainment" restrains me, how the dull metagame with its robotic belt conveyor decks tires me, how the omnipresent masonic art and concepts bother me, and how the whole community disgusts me, I finally sold even the last 300 cards.
Feel free to waste your life in unending battles on stack and whatnot. My three children deserve better father then an "I wanna feel the power through my veins" junkie that has a boner over a piece of cardboard designed by some obese Rosenwasser "game designer".

My life is not build around the game and I neither have a family I have to leave alone every Saturday for playing the game (Praise the mid week Afterwork Legacy!, so it's not that I look back at the past years and feel I missed out on life, meeting people, see new places or take career options.

You've set three wonderful reasons into this world to not waste your spare time and energy as a nightshift-worker (afaik at least; sorry if I took you wrong reading about it in another thread) in this forum or, god forbid, on a stranger like me, rather than your family.

[menace13]

No, your narrative is claiming to have metagame data by browsing top 8 lists. Lol

Yes, that doesnt show what is top 8ing often! Why would anyone compile that data and form opinions from what decks top 8 consistently?

[Lemnear]

Yes, that doesnt show what is top 8ing often! Why would anyone compile that data and form opinions from what decks top 8 consistently?

Because these top 8s are mainly from local events with 8-30 players if you look at his source?

Edit: Don't you think we have differ between local events, the SCG circus which credit free Byes to their "stars" and multi-format grinders and multi-national events like BoM, GPs and Co. when looking at T8s alone? Seriously, if N. Kronberger wins at BoM 9 with Loam its counts less for the statistic than three people top 8ing local events with less than 20 Players.

[menace13]

Because these top 8s are mainly from local events with 8-30 players if you look at his source?

Edit: Don't you think we have differ between local events, the SCG circus which credit free Byes to their "stars" and multi-format grinders and multi-national events like BoM, GPs and Co. when looking at T8s alone? Seriously, if N. Kronberger wins at BoM 9 with Loam its counts less for the statistic than three people top 8ing local events with less than 20 Players.

Right. Wouldnt those players in a local be some part of the bigger events? And if they were wouldnt they pilot what they have familiarity with or a liking to? To be clearer, as an example. If a certain part of the world is known for playing combo. Does it not seem likely that they would play elves and storm in their locals and then also at bom/gp/scg? Take Julian. We all know he will play elves everywhere. Are his top 8s at a local to be discredited? Why would then another local top 8 not be taken into the data pool as a portion of a larger average of top 8 decks?

[Lemnear]

Right. Wouldnt those players in a local be some part of the bigger events? And if they were wouldnt they pilot what they have familiarity with or a liking to? To be clearer, as an example. If a certain part of the world is known for playing combo. Does it not seem likely that they would play elves and storm in their locals and then also at bom/gp/scg? Take Julian. We all know he will play elves everywhere. Are his top 8s at a local to be discredited? Why would then another local top 8 not be taken into the data pool as a portion of a larger average of top 8 decks?

When lets stay with Julian here: he tops local events, BoM side events, wins one and T16s a GP. This does have weight. Why should players, which top 8 their local event with 9 Players (like some tournaments the data was taken from) but have absolutely no impact on a bigger tournament, outshine Julians results and statistical impact just because their event fires more often and they ergo Top8 frequently?

Heck, WotC even banned several players, because they abused the old Reward & Rating system with such mini-tournaments.

[Gheizen64]

So now it's an attack on methodology and data. Hint: no data or methodology will ever look good enough to you if you could justify old bans like Survival or MM but not Brainstorm right now. Faith can't be shaken by proof.
As for me, i stopped playing this game. Standard is horrid with total focus on creatures, Modern has no duals nor waste and as such no appeal to me, and Legacy is now enslaved in a circle of stagnation where everything is blue and will always be because blue has the best shell and WotC can't ban cards if they're blue but hey, we can ban fucking SotF because it's green (and i'd add even Skullclamp at this point be less degenerate than the blue shell). So have fun gentlemen, i'll continue doing some booster drafts and limited because at least there i can have fun deckbulding and it doesn't cost thousands of dollars.

[menace13]

When lets stay with Julian here: he tops local events, BoM side events, wins one and T16s a GP. This does have weight. Why should players, which top 8 their local event with 9 Players (like some tournaments the data was taken from) but have absolutely no impact on a bigger tournament, outshine Julians results and statistical impact just because their event fires more often and they ergo Top8 frequently?

Heck, WotC even banned several players, because they abused the old Reward & Rating system with such mini-tournaments.

It does not outshine. It serves as a data point for what players are playing and winning with. That BoM Loam guy is an outlier when taken as a whole. Obviously even at these small 9 player events Loam isnt showing up. I can draw from the collective data that more players choose to play blue decks. And it's not for any of the random reasons like they lack innovation, or theyre scared to play something else. Basically it comes down to anyone with access to the internet knows what the majority of the player base is sleeving up often. Why should I not play what is generally agreed upon as the best cards to win an event. Whether that is 9 man events or 4,000 players. Why then would the data of top8s taken as a whole not show what I have to prepare for? Are all of those 9 player events piloting fringe niche decks like illusions or slivers? Or are they close enough to resemble what decks top 8 larger events?

[Lemnear]

It does not outshine. It serves as a data point for what players are playing and winning with. That BoM Loam guy is an outlier when taken as a whole. Obviously even at these small 9 player events Loam isnt showing up. I can draw from the collective data that more players choose to play blue decks. And it's not for any of the random reasons like they lack innovation, or theyre scared to play something else. Basically it comes down to anyone with access to the internet knows what the majority of the player base is sleeving up often. Why should I not play what is generally agreed upon as the best cards to win an event. Whether that is 9 man events or 4,000 players. Why then would the data of top8s taken as a whole not show what I have to prepare for? Are all of those 9 player events piloting fringe niche decks like illusions or slivers? Or are they close enough to resemble what decks top 8 larger events?

As presented as an example before, you can push fringe decks like NicFit mainly via a 3 local showings to appear on 24# Place. This shows clearly the weighing of these events on the statistic and the effect is even stronger if you look at the relation of UR Delver showings on the same source. You can draw that players choose to play blue, but you can't say that it isn't rooted on the downward spiral that "Players see blue decks in a top 8 -> pick it up because it appears to be the best -> more blue decks in the Format -> higher chance that blue decks top 8 -> more players pick up blue -> repeat" and because of the internet and forum hive Mind thinking that UR Delver is the best (for the moment). Every time those decks run into a natural predator like Storm, Maverick, Pyro-Jund or Punishing Fire-Loam and loose miserably, people call it "outliner". I call it metagame development.

You can pick Top 8 data to see what to prepare for, sure. But does this mean you have to join the hype train and that there are no decks what can beat those decks? No. That's just lazy.

For your question: no, those small Top8 do not necessarily look like the ones of the bigger tournaments: here, here and here

[death]

Another "shot at the dark" at a possible format 'fix.'

Ban Ponder and Vengevine: Yes I know Preordain will simply replace Ponder, and Serum Visions to take the place of the former. But this change would lessen incentives to play blue. GY strategies are at an all time low, I'd like the return of Survival. Necrotic Ooze combo is bearable compared to LED > quad Vines. For this reason, Vengevine has to hit the dirt.

Unban Survival of the fittest and Hermit Druid: As I said before, Survival is one of those decks that doesn't need blue. Hermit Druid is a full turn faster than Undercity Informer and Balustrade Spy, he also gives the opponent a turn to deal with him. In Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares and Abrupt Decay territory Druid seems terrible, in theory. These two green cards would detract attention from blue.

Keep Mind Twist and Black Vise banned: These cards are easily splashable by the blue color that I fear introducing them into the current environment could bring more harm than good. They can be unbanned sure, but right now these two offer no significant contribution to a healthier format.

How about Earthcraft? It's an enchantment that can be abused with another enchantment, Squirrel Nest is legal, both tutorable by a single spell (Enlightened Tutor). The reason to ban Mystical Tutor was to limit access of Reanimator and Ad Nauseam to their combo spells. Reason why Show and Tell decks aren't overperforming is that no cheap tutor allows access to either half of their combo.

[menace13]

For your question: no, those small Top8 do not necessarily look like the ones of the bigger tournaments: here, here and here

Do I now have to link back to 3 random small events that share deck types of bigger events? I can comprehend your links and tell from total lists that UR Delver, Storm, Patriot, and Lands are what I should see most of if a fraction of those players came to a larger event.

If all those small events added enough to skewer top 8s then that will reflect in the total standings. Those 3 events do not resemble last month where totals were different for the top 15 decks. Are you saying your links do not show what decks appear in multiples that also appear as top placings in larger events? Or that the smaller events may have some fringe decks but when accounted for as a total the outlier decks dont break the top 15?

As presented as an example before, you can push fringe decks like NicFit mainly via a 3 local showings to appear on 24# Place. This shows clearly the weighing of these events on the statistic

Yes, clearly shows me that Nic Fit is fringe with 3 placings in locals for December and that I shouldn't plan for it ? Am I wrong? Why are we worried that 3 small events pushed Nic Fit to 24th when we can see that the top decks are what should be planned for since they have 15-30 placings? Are you saying that people will push fringe decks into top spots and that will give wrong impression of what the most winning decks are?

Every time those decks run into a natural predator like Storm, Maverick, Pyro-Jund or Punishing Fire-Loam and loose miserably, people call it "outliner". I call it metagame development.

Cool. I call it outlier. A thing different from all other members of a particular set. Storm isnt outlier. The rest of that junk you listed doesnt even brainstorm, bro. They will remain outlier.

[Adryan]

Another "shot at the dark" at a possible format 'fix.'

Ban Ponder and Vengevine: Yes I know Preordain will simply replace Ponder, and Serum Visions to take the place of the former. But this change would lessen incentives to play blue. GY strategies are at an all time low, I'd like the return of Survival. Necrotic Ooze combo is bearable compared to LED > quad Vines. For this reason, Vengevine has to hit the dirt.

Unban Survival of the fittest and Hermit Druid: As I said before, Survival is one of those decks that doesn't need blue. Hermit Druid is a full turn faster than Undercity Informer and Balustrade Spy, he also gives the opponent a turn to deal with him. In Lightning Bolt, Swords to Plowshares and Abrupt Decay territory Druid seems terrible, in theory. These two green cards would detract attention from blue.

Keep Mind Twist and Black Vise banned: These cards are easily splashable by the blue color that I fear introducing them into the current environment could bring more harm than good. They can be unbanned sure, but right now these two offer no significant contribution to a healthier format.

How about Earthcraft? It's an enchantment that can be abused with another enchantment, Squirrel Nest is legal, both tutorable by a single spell (Enlightened Tutor). The reason to ban Mystical Tutor was to limit access of Reanimator and Ad Nauseam to their combo spells. Reason why Show and Tell decks aren't overperforming is that no cheap tutor allows access to either half of their combo.

I'm not Sherlock Holmes, but i see a connection. People that argue for a Ponder ban are also kind of really smart people and would make perfect designers at Wotc because of their deep understanding of the game. I would also like to unban Oath of Druids, because well you know it can be easily destroyed by Abrupt Decay and there is already Storm in the format which can kill you on turn 1, Oath can't do that so i think it's fine. Also nonblue decks have more ways to interact with Oath than with Show and Tell.