View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #14321

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by CabalTherapy View Post
    That just sounds so... "funny".
    What? Why dont you believe me? This is getting ridiculous...

  2. #14322

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I feel like this guy should be allowed to make as many B&R threads as he likes. These posts are amazing.

  3. #14323

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Imho Miracles should be weaken by a ban because it overperformed too hard compared to the other decks. I dont say ban Top because that would destroy this deck and a lot of others, as many said here before.

    We saw it at GP Prague and GP Columbus! Miracles overperformed and that makes the meta less diverse.
    The top8 in Columbus 4 of 8 decks were Miracles thats horrible....
    In Prague the top 8 was better but overall too many Miracles deck that performed well.

    I am not sure whats the right ban but a ban of miracles is a must!!
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  4. #14324

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by supremePINEAPPLE View Post
    I feel like this guy should be allowed to make as many B&R threads as he likes. These posts are amazing.
    I hope you arent being sarcastic...

  5. #14325
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Anyways for that more complete answer, Legacy/Vintage are the formats where WotC should really stay out of hand-picking/micro-managing the 'ideal' meta game, if for no other reason than they really don't go out of their way to promote these formats. We all saw what they did in modern: extensive banning of generically good cards. You want to them to treat Miracles like Amulet Bloom and randomly ban Summer Bloom ~ Terminus; that's not a widely desired viewpoint here. The eternal community is more than capable of crafting the ideal meta-game on its own as long as the DCI confines itself to hitting the especially egregious cards.

    Decks come and go, and that's fine; if they banned Counterbalance a new control deck would emerge (or rather re-emerge: UWx Stoneblade) and it would cost a minimal amount to fully transform miracles. Unlike modern, once you have the foundation (duals, fetches, power if vintage), eternal formats don't really suffer from losing value if their deck is banned. What is really odd about people's insistence that miracles never dies (i.e. lose Counterbalance), beyond that weird fairy tale that legacy will no longer have a control deck, is that they were totally silent when Omnitell with DTT had it's beating heart ripped out. Where was the miracles treatment for that deck? Why weren't people saying "DTT ban is bad b/c it will kill the deck, they should have just banned Cunning Wish and it would have been ok"??

    Unlike modern, legacy/vintage don't care about propping up established deck names so much as what the most viable decks will come out looking like given the communal confines of the format. If a card doesn't belong it gets banned or restricted; just as it would not make sense to ban Chrome/Opal/Diamond Moxen and LED just to allow Tolarian Academy as a legacy 4x, so too does it not make sense to ban a plainly good card like Terminus + other cards to follow as the card catalog grows, just to allow a known power level problem card like Counterbalance (or SDT) exist.

    There is a problem with miracles or there isn't - in eternal magic you take problems head on if they exist. Again deck name branding doesn't matter, certainly not for a deck-killer like miracles, which killed UWx Stoneblade decks by providing a strictly better/more winning alternative. You will always run into problems when you arbitrarily choose what decks get to be in the meta game conversation; ban the nonsense, the community will create the meta from there.

  6. #14326

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Top isn't even close to the power level, or ubiquity, or utility of Ponder or Brainstorm. Banning it is absurd. People are taking just as much time to stare at Ponder #6 of the game on the 4th turn than to dick about with top. It's disingenuous to ban a worse, less played, more easily hated out card.

    Option 1:

    Ban one of the cantrip mafia, these camera matches with 6 Ponders in the graveyard by turn 4 are just absurd. The Prague matches were an endless circle jerk of 1 mana busted cantrips in every arch type. Enough is fucking enough. It's become acceptable in a way to play decks with 6 actual lands. This is why a 16 round event is nearly impossible to top 8 without the cantrip cartel.

    Option 2:

    Unban everything that's so obviously worse than Ponder, Brainstorm (or 10 other cards), start with Mind Twist, Earthcraft, and Goblin Recruiter. Salt with Survival of the Fittest and Frantic Search.
    Last edited by nedleeds; 06-16-2016 at 05:36 PM.

  7. #14327
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I have said it several times for several years, but I think that fetchlands should go.

    The only reason I am bringing it up again is because they have a very positive synergy with the current topic of the week, Brainstorm. They also have a significant positive synergy with top and ponder. Not that anyone will agree with my conclusion (or likely my points), but here they are.

    Fetch lands dramatically increase the time needed to play a match
    Fetch lands introduce many more opportunities to cheat
    Fetch lands make great cards like brainstorm very overpowered

    Honestly, I bet Miracles would play Terramorphic Expanse and Evolving Wilds if fetchlands were banned, and that is saying something.

    Does anyone agree with me?

  8. #14328
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I don't disagree that they are part of the problem but fetch lands have the benefit of ensuring everyone can get the colors needed to play their spells, it does make cards much more powerful then intended, but everyone at least gets to play magic by letting them play out their spells.

    It's ultimately a benefit to keep them then otherwise.
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    Ugh, there he goes again, talking about the girlfriend. We get it dude.

  9. #14329
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds View Post
    I don't disagree but fetch lands have the benefit of ensuring everyone can get the colors needed to play their spells, it does make cards much more powerful then intended, but everyone at least gets to play magic by letting them play out their spells.

    It's ultimately a benefit to keep them then otherwise.
    I agree with your analysis, but not the conclusion. Colored mana requirements are supposed to be a restriction. Fetchlands pretty much nullified it, in my opinion. The only thing that people are worried about today is the number of basics that are needed to avoid dying to wastelands. Legacy and vintage can probably be treated as single color formats.

  10. #14330
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Without Fetchlands, Wasteland and Blood Moon become incredibly oppressive cards. DRS becomes unplayable, which in turn makes Wasteland and Blood Moon even better.

    Fetchlands allow you to have access to a reasonable number of basics while still hitting your colors. There are more real games of Magic when people don't autolose to not drawing the right lands or to a single piece of mana denial. And there are more potential strategies and interesting combinations of cards when you can play more than 2 colors.

    They are not great for paper game-play and a totally free shuffle effect is too strong when people have deck manipulation - but there would be pretty significant unintended consequences if they were gone.

  11. #14331
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    Without Fetchlands, Wasteland and Blood Moon become incredibly oppressive cards. DRS becomes unplayable, which in turn makes Wasteland and Blood Moon even better.

    Fetchlands allow you to have access to a reasonable number of basics while still hitting your colors. There are more real games of Magic when people don't autolose to not drawing the right lands or to a single piece of mana denial. And there are more potential strategies and interesting combinations of cards when you can play more than 2 colors.

    They are not great for paper game-play and a totally free shuffle effect is too strong when people have deck manipulation - but there would be pretty significant unintended consequences if they were gone.
    I wouldn't say that Wasteland and Blood Moon would become incredibly oppressive, I would say that they would help reshape the balance between using more colors or not. Currently there is no question, always add more colors. I intend for the consequences to occur. It is not "unintended".

  12. #14332
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    But banning fetchlands would result in side effects which I believe most Legacy players consider undesirable.
    • Daze becomes much worse
    • Blood Moon becomes much better
    • Dual land prices would soar to new heights
    • More games are decided by variance
    Let's use the RUG Delver mana base as an example:

    8 fetch lands
    4 Wasteland
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island

    Under a fetch-less system, Trop and Volc would be upped to 4, but that still leaves 6 slots to fill.
    At that point you'd have to use shocklands and I think we can all agree that shocklands in Legacy is a travesty.

    Colored mana requirements are supposed to be a restriction, but moreso for Limited and Standard. As you move towards Modern, you get to play whatever you want but with an increasing cost in life. Legacy lets you play whatever you like without the drastic life loss, and Vintage lets you play whatever you like without the penalties and throws moxen in there to add explosiveness.

    *Jedi handwave*
    These aren't the changes you're looking for...

  13. #14333
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew View Post
    But banning fetchlands would result in side effects which I believe most Legacy players consider undesirable.
    • Daze becomes much worse
    • Blood Moon becomes much better
    • Dual land prices would soar to new heights
    • More games are decided by variance
    Let's use the RUG Delver mana base as an example:

    8 fetch lands
    4 Wasteland
    3 Tropical Island
    3 Volcanic Island

    Under a fetch-less system, Trop and Volc would be upped to 4, but that still leaves 6 slots to fill.
    At that point you'd have to use shocklands and I think we can all agree that shocklands in Legacy is a travesty.

    Colored mana requirements are supposed to be a restriction, but moreso for Limited and Standard. As you move towards Modern, you get to play whatever you want but with an increasing cost in life. Legacy lets you play whatever you like without the drastic life loss, and Vintage lets you play whatever you like without the penalties and throws moxen in there to add explosiveness.

    *Jedi handwave*
    These aren't the changes you're looking for...
    These are the changes that I am looking for, but they are likely the changes that only I am looking for. I will give you that.

    For what it is worth, almost every deck would have similar needs for redesign. It isn't like RUG delver would be playing against other decks that have fetch lands. Fetch lands are nitro fuel for decks (and cheaters), so people tend to like them. In addition, they are probably the most visible cards in the eternal formats at this point. My suggestion to ban them is telling everyone that I am taking their fun away, so the masses respond with a big "no way".

    I think my points stand and my suggestion is a good one, but I don't think Wizards would ever do it simply because of the response by the players. People want to play with fetchlands, so of course they aren't going to ever get banned.

  14. #14334
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    If you currently play a 4/5c manabase you risk losing to a single Wasteland, and you almost certainly lose to any Blood Moon that resolves. There are already consequences. But if you play a 2c deck in legacy, you're generally not going to lose to a single Wasteland and you can very easily play around Blood Moon. 3c deck is somewhere in between. This would all stop being the case with fetchlands gone and even 2/3c decks would be vulnerable. 3c decks are viable in fetch-less Standard only because powerful mana denial doesn't exist.

    Anyway, I think Wizards knows that fetchlands were a design mistake (if only for how much god damn shuffling they require) but it's the kind of mistake that isn't going anywhere. Legacy is very much a mana denial format and fetchlands play an important and interesting balancing role.

  15. #14335

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Anyways for that more complete answer, Legacy/Vintage are the formats where WotC should really stay out of hand-picking/micro-managing the 'ideal' meta game, if for no other reason than they really don't go out of their way to promote these formats. We all saw what they did in modern: extensive banning of generically good cards. You want to them to treat Miracles like Amulet Bloom and randomly ban Summer Bloom ~ Terminus; that's not a widely desired viewpoint here. The eternal community is more than capable of crafting the ideal meta-game on its own as long as the DCI confines itself to hitting the especially egregious cards.

    Decks come and go, and that's fine; if they banned Counterbalance a new control deck would emerge (or rather re-emerge: UWx Stoneblade) and it would cost a minimal amount to fully transform miracles. Unlike modern, once you have the foundation (duals, fetches, power if vintage), eternal formats don't really suffer from losing value if their deck is banned. What is really odd about people's insistence that miracles never dies (i.e. lose Counterbalance), beyond that weird fairy tale that legacy will no longer have a control deck, is that they were totally silent when Omnitell with DTT had it's beating heart ripped out. Where was the miracles treatment for that deck? Why weren't people saying "DTT ban is bad b/c it will kill the deck, they should have just banned Cunning Wish and it would have been ok"??

    Unlike modern, legacy/vintage don't care about propping up established deck names so much as what the most viable decks will come out looking like given the communal confines of the format. If a card doesn't belong it gets banned or restricted; just as it would not make sense to ban Chrome/Opal/Diamond Moxen and LED just to allow Tolarian Academy as a legacy 4x, so too does it not make sense to ban a plainly good card like Terminus + other cards to follow as the card catalog grows, just to allow a known power level problem card like Counterbalance (or SDT) exist.

    There is a problem with miracles or there isn't - in eternal magic you take problems head on if they exist. Again deck name branding doesn't matter, certainly not for a deck-killer like miracles, which killed UWx Stoneblade decks by providing a strictly better/more winning alternative. You will always run into problems when you arbitrarily choose what decks get to be in the meta game conversation; ban the nonsense, the community will create the meta from there.
    There is a problem with Miracles which is that it is too dominant which reduces format diversity...

    Miracles is not strictly better than Stoneblade... They are two different decks, one is a midrange deck and one is a control deck... If miracles were to be banned Stoneblade would not take its place as Legacy's control deck. If miracles would be banned Stoneblade would not become any more powerful because its relative powerlevel wouldnt change... the best thing to do is too weaken Miracles so both Stoneblade and Miracles are available deck choices.

    I highly doubt that if Terminus is banned Miracles will get another card that pushes it over the top because WotC is moving away from printing good control cards... And if something does push miracles over the top again and we have to ban it the format isnt dead...

  16. #14336

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Talking around the issue by propping up other cards as ban candidates is a waste of time. Fetchlands are fine without Brainstorm.

    Brainstorm is the problem. I don't understand why this is such a difficult issue for people to come to grips with. It's far too powerful and has only gotten more and more abused as the cards/decks it enables get better and better.

    Black discard might have a fighting chance against all the blue decks if they could punish players for holding all those spells in their hand that they suddenly couldn't hide away with Brainstorm.

    It's not a "fun" card, it's not a "skill" card, it's just an overpowered blue sore on the format that has stifled out all of the other colors for a very long time.

    Since this has already been said before over and over and over, please don't offer up other fair cards around Brainstorm as the problem candidates.

  17. #14337
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    The eternal community is more than capable of crafting the ideal meta-game on its own as long as the DCI confines itself to hitting the especially egregious cards.
    I think you're forgetting that this is WotC's game, not ours. Acting like you're the one in the power position here is pretty deluded.
    "Move swift as a wind, stay silent as a forest. Strike fierce as a fire, be stalwart as a mountain."

  18. #14338

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by frogczar View Post
    Talking around the issue by propping up other cards as ban candidates is a waste of time. Fetchlands are fine without Brainstorm.

    Brainstorm is the problem. I don't understand why this is such a difficult issue for people to come to grips with. It's far too powerful and has only gotten more and more abused as the cards/decks it enables get better and better.

    Black discard might have a fighting chance against all the blue decks if they could punish players for holding all those spells in their hand that they suddenly couldn't hide away with Brainstorm.

    It's not a "fun" card, it's not a "skill" card, it's just an overpowered blue sore on the format that has stifled out all of the other colors for a very long time.

    Since this has already been said before over and over and over, please don't offer up other fair cards around Brainstorm as the problem candidates.
    +1. I think everyone who responds 'ban island while your at it!' 'ban fetchlands' and 'pillar of the format' is on my ignore list so if I've missed the context for your response I apologize.

  19. #14339
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morzas View Post
    I think you're forgetting that this is WotC's game, not ours. Acting like you're the one in the power position here is pretty deluded.
    WotC can ban/restrict cards, they'll print new cards...they don't control how the meta shifts in reaction to those changes. Could they step in and arbitrarily say 'we're going to implement modern-style bans to lower miracles win-rate' - sure. It doesn't make much sense to step into formats they don't really support and hand-pick the meta deck-by-deck; they could...but they currently aren't. I don't know why saying they could do that matters.

    There are like 700 pages in this thread, you're a little late to the party to tell people to stop talking/thinking about b/r because wizards owns the game. No one here expects WotC to do what we say, we're just spending time discussing the format with other members of the community who share our passion.

  20. #14340
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    +1. I think everyone who responds 'ban island while your at it!' 'ban fetchlands' and 'pillar of the format' is on my ignore list so if I've missed the context for your response I apologize.
    Quote Originally Posted by frogczar View Post
    Talking around the issue by propping up other cards as ban candidates is a waste of time. Fetchlands are fine without Brainstorm.

    Brainstorm is the problem. I don't understand why this is such a difficult issue for people to come to grips with. It's far too powerful and has only gotten more and more abused as the cards/decks it enables get better and better.

    Black discard might have a fighting chance against all the blue decks if they could punish players for holding all those spells in their hand that they suddenly couldn't hide away with Brainstorm.

    It's not a "fun" card, it's not a "skill" card, it's just an overpowered blue sore on the format that has stifled out all of the other colors for a very long time.

    Since this has already been said before over and over and over, please don't offer up other fair cards around Brainstorm as the problem candidates.
    We can quibble about "fun", but the main issue is that Wizards has made it abundantly clear that Brainstorm is untouchable, so offering up other candidates is the sane thing to do.

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