View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #22801

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I think their goal is to try to make midrange viable in Pauper, but the card pool does not support that very well, so the aggro decks go wide so fast that the best available answer to that is fog effects, and with the recursion effects in Pauper, the Tron manabase is the easiest way to get to the mana needed to trigger as many fog effects as needed.

    I doubt that Expedition Map makes enough of a difference, because it does not solve the fundamental issue that Pauper needs better sweepers to make midrange even viable. Of course, said sweepers are usually put at uncommon for a reason, so maybe it is just Pauper's destiny to be aggro vs. fog control.

  2. #22802

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie View Post
    ... so maybe it is just Pauper's destiny to be aggro vs. fog control.
    I actually think they just want to be 'turn my creatures sideways, now your turn your creatures sideways'. But hey, they listen to the 'format experts' whose articles preached for years that delver and blue needed to be totally nerfed, but never once predicted what would happen afterwards. Now, those same 'experts' have been banging the drum against tron. I wonder what those guys actually play.

  3. #22803

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    probably Brawl

  4. #22804
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Hopefully they'll do a rules update at some point that allows you to activate companion special action at instant speed if the companion has flash. Make legacy an otter format again

  5. #22805

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Hello everybody!
    I’m wrong or legacy was not so bad since treasure cruise era?
    Really all this veil,oko,astrolab and grave sinergy...I’m really too nostalgic of the sensei’s top and deathrite era...
    In my opinion was the best metà I have played and I’m glad I could enjoy it!
    Now I see too many grave combo...wasteland that is not good like before...
    I really hope in a good ban this time...

  6. #22806

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I'm with you.
    Labe needs to go, Veil needs to go.
    But people were crying for "Modern with OG Duals" and that's what they've gotten.
    Basically it was this way when I started playing what? 15 years ago and it probably will always be this way. People want to play broken stuff or a load of creatures mostly uninterupted and interacted with as little as possible. They'd probably play solitaire if they didn't thirst for someone admiring their greatness.Thus the "Blue is op, here eat my 15 goblins turn three" attitude. But that's another story.
    40%Aggro, 40%Combo and 20%Control, of wich half of the decks are 4-5c Labeshit because nothing else seems viable enough with all the hate for control.. but that is what sounds healthy to an overwhelming majority it seems.

  7. #22807

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I'd love to see Labe at the very least eat a ban. Make Wasteland Great Again

  8. #22808
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sella View Post
    I'd love to see Labe at the very least eat a ban. Make Wasteland Great Again
    Oko will scavenge for any future 1cmc trinket which draws a card without being sacrificed. Doesn't matter what it does, Oko will exploit it. WotC will print this card.

    On Astrolabe specifically: there is no tier deck which wins/shapes the meta by playing Astrolabe without Oko. This isn't a thing that competes in legacy.

    Astrolabe is not only the wrong ban (it's 100% Oko ban), it's a meaningless ban.

  9. #22809
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    But Legacy has already been designated as the format to play broken blue mistakes they don't want in other formats (Brainstorm, Jace, the Mind Sculptor when first printed, True-Name Nemesis when first printed, Cruise and DTT longer than they lasted in other formats). Will they ban Oko, or just keep it dumped in Legacy for players who pimped out Elk tokens?

  10. #22810
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Which one is more oppressive:
    Astrolabe + Oko + Uro
    Top + Counterbalance + Terminus
    Insectile Aberration + Wasteland + Stifle

    Remember Legacy has 20/20, 10drils, and Griselbrand.
    On the Sep 2011 Ban List Updates,
    Quote Originally Posted by Lancer View Post
    Yep DCI/Wizards never fails... those that cry the loudest wins!

  11. #22811
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by tsabo_tavoc View Post
    Which one is more oppressive:
    Astrolabe + Oko + Uro
    Top + Counterbalance + Terminus
    Insectile Aberration + Wasteland + Stifle

    Remember Legacy has 20/20, 10drils, and Griselbrand.
    Counterbalance, not even close. Total hand destruction (countering everything you cast is another form of discard) is, by many degrees of magnitude, the most overpowered and illegitimate tactic in legacy.

  12. #22812
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Counterbalance, not even close. Total hand destruction (countering everything you cast is another form of discard) is, by many degrees of magnitude, the most overpowered and illegitimate tactic in legacy.
    Actually not sure how Counterbalance fairs against the 3cc goodies. I remember far more cries on Top, and they did not touch it until the sign at their parking lot.
    On the Sep 2011 Ban List Updates,
    Quote Originally Posted by Lancer View Post
    Yep DCI/Wizards never fails... those that cry the loudest wins!

  13. #22813
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Right, there are cards that invalidate the ability to cheese total hand destruction. They are rare, and usually banned. The list includes: SDT, DTT, Wrenn, Breach, Lurrus, Oko (which allows inflated Veil use).

    The hand destruction cheese never went away; it's just dormant until the last domino falls (Oko).

    While Oko is the right ban, the format would get worse as you hand it right back to Hymn and Counterbalance exploiters.

  14. #22814
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    nah, Allosaurus Shepard into Veil of Summer, pinnacle of health!
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  15. #22815
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Right, there are cards that invalidate the ability to cheese total hand destruction. They are rare, and usually banned. The list includes: SDT, DTT, Wrenn, Breach, Lurrus, Oko (which allows inflated Veil use).

    The hand destruction cheese never went away; it's just dormant until the last domino falls (Oko).

    While Oko is the right ban, the format would get worse as you hand it right back to Hymn and Counterbalance exploiters.
    Oko doesn't stop people from playing Hymns, Veil does. It's why I've enjoyed having Veil in the format so much, there is a card that even non-blue decks can use to successfully interact with the 2-for-one attrition decks (Czech Pile / Grixis Control) other than Daze and Life from the Loam (probably forgetting some card). Counterbalance should have been banned over top in my view, being the most unfun card in the format by far (while at the time fuelling an oppressive archetype), but that's an old topic (and I guess rather subjective view).

    If Oko is banned, we see Chalice being more useful and Vial + equipment, so Moon Stompy and DnT are back widening the pie of viable strategies, and hopefully we see Snoko split back into Miracles and Grixis Control but I think Astrolabe needs a ban too for that to happen.. Which it probably would next after Oko is banned, once RUG leaves the top of the meta with 5c control taking its place.

  16. #22816
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    Oko doesn't stop people from playing Hymns, Veil does. It's why I've enjoyed having Veil in the format so much, there is a card that even non-blue decks can use to successfully interact with the 2-for-one attrition decks (Czech Pile / Grixis Control) other than Daze and Life from the Loam (probably forgetting some card). Counterbalance should have been banned over top in my view, being the most unfun card in the format by far (while at the time fuelling an oppressive archetype), but that's an old topic (and I guess rather subjective view).
    Arguably, Oko makes blue decks want to splash green, which then lets them also play Veil. Without Oko there's less reason to be green vs UWr or Grixis.

  17. #22817
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Arguably, Oko makes blue decks want to splash green, which then lets them also play Veil. Without Oko there's less reason to be green vs UWr or Grixis.
    This is the correct assessment of Oko inflating other card use; applicable to Uro, Veil, and Astrolabe.

    The next assessment is that hitting any of those cards, not called Oko, with a ban would result in a direct boost to RUG Delver's winrate.

  18. #22818
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Arguably, Oko makes blue decks want to splash green, which then lets them also play Veil. Without Oko there's less reason to be green vs UWr or Grixis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    This is the correct assessment of Oko inflating other card use; applicable to Uro, Veil, and Astrolabe.
    I think I disagree with this. This is only (dangerous word) potentially true for the 5c control deck(s) and they would play Veil anyway as long as they have Astrolabe. For any green deck Veil is a natural inclusion in the 75 as long as there is a popular Hymn to Tourach deck (also some other cards, but let's continue the HTT aspect of the discussion, perhaps), and also for the 5c Astrolabe decks with or without Oko (it seems likely), which there won't be (a popular HTT deck) as long as those decks can run Veils. I don't think Oko plays a relevant role in this.. ecosystem of cards.

    Astrolabe brings too much value for the control decks, I think. Letting them pick the best cards out of 5 colors while running blood moon and having wasteland protection. I don't see them giving up on this just because Oko left. At least not necessarily.

  19. #22819
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    It's really hard to kill PWs when your deck has 4x Astrolabe that can't turn into haste 3/3s - you start to lack slots that answer this problem. This is why Astrolabe without Oko isn't a tier deck strategy - it's not good enough to compete in legacy.

    The list of playable PWs that can be played against Oko/Astrolabe [without playing Oko] profitably is: Nissa of the 5/5s, Karn, Ugin (both of them), 6cmc Chandra, and 5cmc Teferi. This list explodes without hasted AstroElk.

  20. #22820
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    It's really hard to kill PWs when your deck has 4x Astrolabe that can't turn into haste 3/3s - you start to lack slots that answer this problem. This is why Astrolabe without Oko isn't a tier deck strategy - it's not good enough to compete in legacy.

    The list of playable PWs that can be played against Oko/Astrolabe [without playing Oko] profitably is: Nissa of the 5/5s, Karn, Ugin (both of them), 6cmc Chandra, and 5cmc Teferi. This list explodes without hasted AstroElk.
    I'm getting lost here, why are you discussing why a deck would choose to not play Oko even if it could? I don't see how this is relevant in any topic discussed recently..

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