View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #21881
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    It's like people haven't realized that one-mana hate-cards are good at dealing with two-mana value cards.
    That’s a good deal less true when the Wrenn deck plays Daze, and your 1cmc card whiffs and you find yourself in an increasingly unwinnable position. The card you want vs Wrenn would be DRS, as it came with a proactive plan of winning the game, whereas Snare is inherently higher variance.

  2. #21882

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Goodbye W6, yet another non-blue card sacrificed to the altar of Brainstorm.

  3. #21883
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    That’s a good deal less true when the Wrenn deck plays Daze, and your 1cmc card whiffs and you find yourself in an increasingly unwinnable position. The card you want vs Wrenn would be DRS, as it came with a proactive plan of winning the game, whereas Snare is inherently higher variance.
    In what universe is DRS not in the same deck as W6

  4. #21884

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    He's saying the solution to stopping the effectiveness of W6 would be DRS by eating the lands and sticking with two toughness.

  5. #21885
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    A reflection on what this does to legacy as a format seems appropriate, helping people see this from a different perspective than a single card leaving the format.

    Decks that become irrelevant with the ban:
    Feel free to fill in your response here


    Decks that become relevant with the ban:
    Elves
    Death and Taxes
    Maverick
    Cloudpost
    Moon Stompy?
    Infect?
    Feel free to fill in your response here

    Edit: look at that, someone started a thread for this purpose, listing playable decks: https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/c...m_source=share
    Last edited by pettdan; 11-19-2019 at 07:31 AM.

  6. #21886
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    He's saying the solution to stopping the effectiveness of W6 would be DRS by eating the lands and sticking with two toughness.
    That only makes sense if the problem is Wrenn and Six the card and not the decks that W6 can be played in. How many times have people said "W6 would be fine if it couldn't be played in blue decks?"

  7. #21887
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Watersaw View Post
    That only makes sense of the problem is Wrenn and Six the card and not the decks that W6 can be played in. How many times have people said "W6 would be fine if it couldn't be played in blue decks?"
    -How does blue value pile keep fair decks out of the format: Hymn spam - we already saw it with Czech and Grixis.
    -What does having DRS, Wrenn, and Oko as obligatory cards in blue value pile mean: you have have deep cuts to Kcomm and Strix and Snapcaster and Hymn to find slots (otherwise you lose the mirror b/c you were out-valued).
    -What is the result: blue value pile can’t obliterate every zone/axis a fair deck (also using DRS and Wrenn) is going to compete on. Thus we have consistency vs a strategy that will be more powerful - a more even playing field.

    Wrenn + DRS are dumb cards, but in combination their stupidy would balance eachother out and preferentially push out legacy’s biggest 2cmc problem cards.

    Watch the slots disappear:
    4x DRS
    4x FoW
    4x Ponder
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Wrenn
    3x Oko
    4x single discard
    2x SCM
    2x flex (Leo/Gurmag)
    1x Plague Engi
    4x removals (2x Decay, 1x Trophy, 1x Kcomm probably. Still probably need to add ~2x Push)
    — that’s already 36 slots + 20 lands. Enjoy the pointless mirrors.

  8. #21888
    bruizar
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Well, guess my Eternal Weekend deck is dead. Thanks for wasting my money with a pump and dump hype set WOTC! Not buying Oko's either, they will get axed once Throne of Eldraine is out of print. Might as well cancel my train ticket + hotel to Paris. RIP foil playset.

  9. #21889

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    ... Can you even run w6 and Drs together?
    It seems like they compete to utilize your graveyard in different ways.

  10. #21890
    bruizar
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Oko isn't banned in Modern so that Standard players can sell their Oko's to modern players, where it will eventually also be banned. The same will happen in Legacy. It's so obvious how WOTC is signaling their premeditated monetization strategy with their bannings. I'm disgusted

    Announcement Date: November 18, 2019
    Standard:
    Oko, Thief of Crowns is banned.
    Once Upon a Time is banned.
    Veil of Summer is banned.
    Brawl:
    Oko, Thief of Crowns is banned.
    Legacy:
    Wrenn and Six is banned.
    Vintage:
    Narset, Parter of Veils is restricted.
    Tabletop Effective Date: Nov 22, 2019
    MTG Arena Effective Date: Nov 18, 2019
    Magic Online Effective Date: Nov 18, 2019
    The list of all banned and restricted cards, by format, is here.
    Next B&R Announcement: December 16, 2019




    LEGACY
    Since their adoption of Wrenn and Six, Temur Delver variants have become dominant in Legacy. In Magic Online league play over recent weeks, Temur Delver has maintained a 56.5% win rate and earned over three times as many 5-0 finishes as the next deck. Most importantly, it has a favorable matchup against each of the other ten most-played decks.

    While a strong card in general, Wrenn and Six is especially powerful in Legacy because of its interaction with Wasteland and the historic prevalence of metagame-defining 1-toughness creatures like Mother of Runes; Thalia, Guardian of Thraben; and Young Pyromancer. Prior to the addition of Wrenn and Six to Temur Delver decks, the Legacy metagame was generally looking healthy. In order to weaken Temur Delver decks and bring the metagame into a better balance again, Wrenn and Six is banned in Legacy.


    Just pull the trigger and get rid of fetch lands.

  11. #21891

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    ... Can you even run w6 and Drs together?
    It seems like they compete to utilize your graveyard in different ways.
    Well, they're both banned now so the question is doubly academic, but it shouldn't really be a huge issue since everyone plays fetches and DRS can use lands from the opponent's graveyard. W6 might not be great vs opposing DRS, but that's a different question.

  12. #21892
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    Well, they're both banned now so the question is doubly academic, but it shouldn't really be a huge issue since everyone plays fetches and DRS can use lands from the opponent's graveyard. W6 might not be great vs opposing DRS, but that's a different question.
    Since this is really only possible in Vintage, when you would get access to something like Strip Mine in addition to Wasteland, I think they do both tax the your 'yard in uncomplimentary ways, but DRS can always eat from the opposing yard, mitigating the tension somewhat.
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  13. #21893
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    Oko isn't banned in Modern so that Standard players can sell their Oko's to modern players, where it will eventually also be banned. The same will happen in Legacy. It's so obvious how WOTC is signaling their premeditated monetization strategy with their bannings. I'm disgusted
    I doubt that Oko will get banned. It's easy to imagine that it might, but I don't think the card has functions that are that oppressive for the format and I haven't seen it play that role yet. That may all change.While for W6 I started to expect it's banning immediately when it gained popularity. I think my previous post explains why with extreme clarity.. Someone mention two decks whose existence is challenged by Oko, I know I can't..

  14. #21894

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Watersaw View Post
    That only makes sense if the problem is Wrenn and Six the card and not the decks that W6 can be played in. How many times have people said "W6 would be fine if it couldn't be played in blue decks?"
    The problem is that it could be played in blue decks, and it was played in blue decks. They even color-coded it red and green without so much as thinking about how easy that is to pull off in Legacy.

    You can really say that about any card, though. Wrenn and Six did exist and it existed in a format where its abilities were incredibly relevant and powerful. The cards around Wrenn and Six made it more powerful, but that's true of just about every card because interaction and synergies makes the game what it is. You can't ban a card from being played in a given deck, you have to ban it all together.

  15. #21895
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    I doubt that Oko will get banned. It's easy to imagine that it moght, but I don't think the card has functions that are that oppressive for the format and I haven't seen it play that role yet. That may all change.While for W6 I started to expect it's banning immediately when it gained popularity. I think my previous post explains why with extreme clarity.. Someone mention two decks whose existence is challenged by Oko, I know I can't..
    Modern will see an Oko ban, or at least something that nerfs the Urza deck. There are a significant number of decks that are getting pushed out of the modern format because of Oko: Burn (it will only take a little time before this is unplayable), Tron (nice Karn Liberated, it's now an Elk), and most variants of UWx control/mid-range. At this point I think the only thing that could realistically contain Oko/Urza is Jund and possibly Splinter Twin if it got unbanned.

    Legacy is a different story, Oko is just on-par in that format. Immediately ticking up to 6 loyalty is just a massive pain in the ass.
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  16. #21896

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Modern will see an Oko ban, or at least something that nerfs the Urza deck. There are a significant number of decks that are getting pushed out of the modern format because of Oko: Burn (it will only take a little time before this is unplayable), Tron (nice Karn Liberated, it's now an Elk), and most variants of UWx control/mid-range. At this point I think the only thing that could realistically contain Oko/Urza is Jund and possibly Splinter Twin if it got unbanned.

    Legacy is a different story, Oko is just on-par in that format. Immediately ticking up to 6 loyalty is just a massive pain in the ass.
    It also exists in a format where Red Elemental Blast, Pyroblast and Daze exist. I think against more aggressive Legacy strategies, Oko isn't as good as it is against Modern decks of similar ilk. But this is what happens when they print three-mana planeswalkers that have good abilities. The problem though is that the loyalty to cost ratio is highly incongruent, and that's what the real problem is because combat isn't going to be an effective way to remove it from play.

  17. #21897
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    I think against more aggressive Legacy strategies, Oko isn't as good as it is against Modern decks of similar ilk.
    You mean elk.
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  18. #21898
    bruizar
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I got my ass handed to me playing an aggro build of dragon stompy against a single Oko last week. The thing just won’t die because its loyalty is ridiculous. It turns Arcums Astrolabe into a 3/3 hasty elk, trades your beefy with their food or useless arcums astrolabe (unless u have snow basics), and it pumps out food continuously. Oko was much more problematix for me to deal with than Wrenn and Six.

    Also, if you look at mtgtop8, you will see that the top8 legacy event had 3 UR Delver decks representing all of 0 Wrenn and Six. The only deck in the top 8 to run it is lands. Meanwhile, brainstorm is everywhere and isnt getting axed.

  19. #21899
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    I got my ass handed to me playing an aggro build of dragon stompy against a single Oko last week. The thing just won’t die because its loyalty is ridiculous. It turns Arcums Astrolabe into a 3/3 hasty elk, trades your beefy with their food or useless arcums astrolabe (unless u have snow basics), and it pumps out food continuously. Oko was much more problematix for me to deal with than Wrenn and Six.

    Also, if you look at mtgtop8, you will see that the top8 legacy event had 3 UR Delver decks representing all of 0 Wrenn and Six. The only deck in the top 8 to run it is lands. Meanwhile, brainstorm is everywhere and isnt getting axed.
    That may be the part that felt bad, the more problematic thing about Oko for your deck is that Oko users can let turn 1 Chalice snap resolve. You lose your first real wincon to countermagic instead, then they get their wincon (Oko), and when convenient they will vindicate your first turn turning Oko against Chalice. You fell behind by ~2 turn equivalents.
    -
    The best part about this whole thing is how they banned it to "weaken RUG Delver." Maybe don't ban the wrong card [DRS], and wotc wouldn't have had to chain ban down the line on the back of that mistake. As you pointed out in previous post, it's always been a Fetchland problem.

  20. #21900

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Modern will see an Oko ban, or at least something that nerfs the Urza deck.
    If they're going to nerf the Urza deck, and I am not sure they will, they will hit Urza or maybe Mox Opal. Oko isn't the problem, he's just a good card in the deck.

    There are a significant number of decks that are getting pushed out of the modern format because of Oko: Burn (it will only take a little time before this is unplayable),
    Burn is one of the most popular decks in the format right now, I believe. It hardly seems to be becoming "unplayable."

    Tron (nice Karn Liberated, it's now an Elk),
    You realize that Oko can't hit planeswalkers, right?

    and most variants of UWx control/mid-range.
    These aren't as popular as they were earlier this year but I don't think they were that big a force to begin with.

    At this point I think the only thing that could realistically contain Oko/Urza is Jund and possibly Splinter Twin if it got unbanned.
    The rest of the Modern format seems to be doing a pretty good job containing it. Yes, Oko/Urza got half of the Top 8 at SCG Atlanta a few weeks ago but has never managed to do that spectacularly at any event before or since then, as far as I can tell. The current evidence is that that's an anomaly from being being unprepared for it.

    Maybe future results will tell a different story--but the Urza/Oko deck doesn't seem to have a disproportionately high percentage of the metagame compared to anything else right now, as far as I can tell.

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