Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Goblin Lackey
Standstill
Natural Order
I'm totally on your side. Legacy is at its best right now.
Playing this format for nearly 10 years now and I'm really happy with it.
Edit: I even liked it with W6 :p
I pretty much agree with your sentiment that it has moved relatively in the right direction. I remember making a post probably a year or so back in this thread about them needing to print things that give things that blue had to other colors, so that other colors could do 'blue things' just as much as blue is able to do the 'things' every other color is good at because it has superior access to card selection. They have printed a ton of cards that allow other colors to interact on the stack better, or compete with blue card selection with niche tutoring. It is sort of interesting how in pioneer green had become that dominant color because they just happened to have a lot of these cards that were printed to mimic blue in eternal formats.
Apologies for the late response, but...
The deck was perfectly capable of locking the board down with Ensnaring Bridge and then killing the opponent later on before Oko.
No, Oko is the value card. Urza might just be a value card it not for the fact that with him you can go infinite. Granted, you could do that before with Time Sieve, but Time Sieve could only be used for that purpose, whereas Urza will ramp you and give you giant creatures and, once going infinite, the ability to cast every single spell in your deck for free to make sure your opponent doesn't have the ability to do anything to stop you.Urza is literally just another value card amongst other value cards. I predict Oko getting banned because it has happened in multiple other formats already.
The deck was a real force before Oko (or Emry) got printed, and Urza was the card that made the deck a thing to begin with. I don't see how someone can plausibly say that Urza is "just another value card" whereas Oko is supposed to be more than that.
But that's not what you said at all. You said "Burn (it will only take a little time before this is unplayable)," That's not a "time will tell" statement, that's a hard and definite statement that Burn will be unplayable.Burn is popular because of the Tron resurgence and the banning of Faithless Looting. It occupies the territory that Phoenix decks were claiming as an aggressive red deck that can beat the big mana decks. Time will tell whether this continues, which is all I meant.
Incidentally, Burn just got two slots at the last Modern GP, proof positive that Oko is hardly pushing it out.
Well, then your apparent argument for Oko pushing out Urzatron is moot. In fact, Urzatron seems like like it has a positive matchup against Urza/Oko, at least in theory (it's harder for me to comment on in practice, as I've only played the matchup once--Urzatron won, though). Certainly, Oko is quite unimpressive against Tron. And in terms of practical results, Tron is doing fine.I didn't, I completely missed it. My experience so far has been with Karn tGC + Lattice making everything an artifact, which allowed Oko to turn it into an Elk. I forgot that it only targets creatures/artifacts in the text.
Even if they no longer qualify as 'passably competitive', decks rise and fall all the time. A deck can't be said to be a problem just because some decks are no longer as good--one has to connect it directly to the new deck and it has to be an abnormal number of decks no longer being a part of the format. At the time UW decks were doing better, Death's Shadow was practically nonexistent. Now Death's Shadow is back in a big way.Popularity is one thing, competitiveness is another. UWx decks were at least passably competitive, now the Oko/Urza deck will push them into solidly t3 or lower territory.
Oh, sure, Wizards of the Coast can do whatever they want in terms of banning. I won't venture to try to predict what they will do. My objection is the objectively inaccurate claims you were making, like Burn and Tron being pushed out despite the fact they're among the best decks in the format, now and back when you made the comment.I could buy that if the deck wasn't already twin-like in its nature. It is an incredible mid-range deck alongside being a broken artifact deck. You fight one half, lose to the other. I'm not arguing for a ban of Oko, I'm saying it will be watched closely to see if the trend continues. Krark-Clan Ironworks was *never* a highly represented deck in Modern, but that got banned. Say what you want about 'high skill threshold' or 'unique interactions that scared people away from the deck', but the final say came from WOTC when they banned KCI.
Fair statements. I was obviously wrong on several points. Overreaction fail, lol.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Oko doesn't seem to be "dominating" Pioneer, plus, they still need something to sell Eldraine. OUaT was in all sorts of decks, where Oko forces one into GU, which isn't a strong color combination in Pioneer (at the moment). I think we can be almost assured that the culling in Pioneer is far from over though. Oko might well be axed if it puts up strong results through December. Dropping that axe at the beginning of January, leading up to the January 30th GP and new Theros set (which comes out the 24th) builds some hype for a "fresh meta" and then will strongly drive new sales. Seems likely to me.
We should probably be keeping an eye on when the next Legacy GP gets scheduled for, if Oko gets the axe, it will likely be then.
Seattle seems like a place they might do Legacy, or Providence, but then again, Las Vegas will likely be a multi-GP event too, which might include Legacy (but might be Standard, Pioneer, Modern). But it seems like Oko is probably safe in Legacy until at least June, but more probably August. Actually, I kind of hope for 0 Legacy GPs so they'll leave the format alone, but we'll have to see.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
More than 1600 players in Bologna, I was there.
7 Oko for the two finalists.
2x Veil of summer MD for the winner (Green Miracles)...
TO be fair to Pioneer, the format was created without a banlist basically so this could happen. I think they are being a bit too aggressive by banning multiple things at a time preemptively, but they said form the start that they would ban aggressively so it's not lie anyone has really been surprised by any of these bans
After buying foil W6, (and mox diamonds for it), foil Once Upon a Time and foil Veil of Summer, I am specifically not buying any Oko's, because he will get banned anyway. Apparently, you now have to reconsider the purchase of a card if it is too good, so I buy nothing instead.
Dec. 16th no changes to any format. You’ve got 1 more B&R cycle before Oko gets Wrenn and 6’d.
In a stunning twist, the only thing that got banned today was regular banlist updates.
Going forward, we'll no longer be making a commitment in advance to when the next B&R update will be. While we still expect changes to come in a similar pace, and will always announce changes on a Monday, we'll be allowing some flexibility in the exact week of changes. This will let us be more agile and responsive with changes when needed while respecting the needs and timelines of competitive events. We'll still do our best to avoid making changes to a format too soon before a major event so as not to negatively impact players' plans and preparations. That said, given the number of major events now being held nearly every weekend around the world, and the need to make sure we're addressing the health of formats in a timely manner, some conflicts may arise. We'll do what we can to give advance notice if we're able.
The thing is that the overuse of Astrolabe and Veil (and to a lesser extent Teferi) is directly attributable to Oko; all of these are downstream problems. Banning the only remaining real [but mostly sideboard only] anti-Hymn card is off the table (also it’s just a pointless ban that doesn’t really change what’s going on in the format). Banning Astrolabe just makes BUG Delver the best Oko deck, which completely negates banning Wrenn to nerf Delver.
I don’t think Oko is really all that much of a problem, but this is a combination of cards legacy does not look to be able to adapt to (and Veil countering red blasts isn’t doing us any favors). There’s no positive progress possible without targeting Oko with the banhammer.
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