All B/R update speculation.

[Dice_Box]

Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay homogenize the format worse than brainstorm ever did.

Ha. Ha. Ha. Hahahahahaha.... I need to breathe...

[Lemnear]

Ha. Ha. Ha. Hahahahahaha.... I need to breathe...

I guess the statement was too bold and therefore losing the point. If he was pointing to playable color combinations, he is correct. UR, UWR, BW, UGW, BWR, etc and all the related decks like Patriot, Blade, etc died out in the Countertop/Chalice/Decay/Griselbrand metagame.

Following some of the points Jona has presented in the last weeks, I am not even sure if Delver (the card) is even playable anymore, as the data show that DRS+TNN is state of the art (again) for aggro & midrange and Delver strategies underperform

[Dice_Box]

I guess the statement was too bold and therefore losing the point.

Oh I fully understood the point. Just, stating vultures are a problem while your town dies of the plague is amusing.

[CabalTherapy]

Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay homogenize the format worse than brainstorm ever did.

Decay not so much since it's a natural inclusion in the colour combinations that the DRS-decks play; upgrade to other removal spells. DRS certainly makes some colour combination inferior since they lose the ability to play
a t1 Planeswalker.

I guess the statement was too bold and therefore losing the point. If he was pointing to playable color combinations, he is correct. UR, UWR, BW, UGW, BWR, etc and all the related decks like Patriot, Blade, etc died out in the Countertop/Chalice/Decay/Griselbrand metagame.

Some of the combinations you point out have never been big though but Shaman does some work to make them even worse choices. By the way, I don't know why you repetitively refer to a "Countertop/Chalice/Decay/Griselbrand"? Countertop: sure, no doubt about it. Chalice: not really, gets played by some trash decks that don't score good results, Decay: sure, a clear one. Griselbrand: SnT is underplayed in my opinion, UB unplayable, and BR too inconstant.
It's more of a Countertop/Decay+Shaman metagame to be honest but we all get the point.

One thing that also strucks me is kind of the disparity of answers of some of the members here. Coming from the humanities or literary studies to be more precise, it's really agonizing for me how some people (no, not you Lemnear; not this time) deal with such a concept as Legacy, which basically is nothing else that a genre of mtg. Especially regarding the whole "ban BS" discussion one can see so many flawed arguments, where people simply don't take their time or maybe don't have the capabilities to take a step back and reflect upon Legacy, mtg, and their own opinions. Thus, making a discussion here completely useless because some suspects return from time to time to the thread, call out some shitty data or just write a line about how BS is overpowered. It's purely my fault I read this thread and the only thing that makes me laugh is the point that Wizards won't read those whiny and salty posts.

[Lemnear]

By the way, I don't know why you repetitively refer to a "Countertop/Chalice/Decay/Griselbrand"? Countertop: sure, no doubt about it. Chalice: not really, gets played by some trash decks that don't score good results, Decay: sure, a clear one. Griselbrand: SnT is underplayed in my opinion, UB unplayable, and BR too inconstant.
It's more of a Countertop/Decay+Shaman metagame to be honest but we all get the point.

I apologize. I guess, the stretching became a habit through the whole "Counterbalance vs Decay format" discussion and some people constantly nicpicking about me not mentioning the exceptions like D&T, Lands, S&T, Aluren, MUD, Infect or what else. :/

[CabalTherapy]

I apologize. I guess, the stretching became a habit through the whole "Counterbalance vs Decay format" discussion and some people constantly nicpicking about me not mentioning the exceptions like D&T, Lands, S&T, Aluren, MUD, Infect or what else. :/

A book may have many chapters but the overall title nowadays clearly is "CB/Top vs. Decay/Shaman". People can nitpick as they like but the general idea remains the same. Take Burn, it is probably the oldest strategy in Legacy and its presence doesn't make it "CB/Decay/Fireblast" because in the end Legacy is great and you can play so many decks but some eras has been better in terms of variety. We have come to a point where it is unreasonable to play a deck
that isn't Miracles (only proper deck with topCB) or a BGX pile with Decay; at least the drawbacks of not running either of those combinations has never been bigger. I don't want to propose a specific ban because I am biased towards playing U since it opens up the format and makes it they way it is but I could imagine it being a non-BS, Miracles-specific card that might leave Miracles or let's say UWr Control still playable.

[Whitefaces]

One thing that also strucks me is kind of the disparity of answers of some of the members here. Coming from the humanities or literary studies to be more precise, it's really agonizing for me how some people (no, not you Lemnear; not this time) deal with such a concept as Legacy, which basically is nothing else that a genre of mtg. Especially regarding the whole "ban BS" discussion one can see so many flawed arguments, where people simply don't take their time or maybe don't have the capabilities to take a step back and reflect upon Legacy, mtg, and their own opinions. Thus, making a discussion here completely useless because some suspects return from time to time to the thread, call out some shitty data or just write a line about how BS is overpowered. It's purely my fault I read this thread and the only thing that makes me laugh is the point that Wizards won't read those whiny and salty posts.

Thank you for articulating this point so well, it's how I feel too but could never be bothered to type it up as I'd just shake my head and close the thread.

[Lemnear]

A book may have many chapters but the overall title nowadays clearly is "CB/Top vs. Decay/Shaman". People can nitpick as they like but the general idea remains the same. Take Burn, it is probably the oldest strategy in Legacy and its presence doesn't make it "CB/Decay/Fireblast" because in the end Legacy is great and you can play so many decks but some eras has been better in terms of variety. We have come to a point where it is unreasonable to play a deck
that isn't Miracles (only proper deck with topCB) or a BGX pile with Decay; at least the drawbacks of not running either of those combinations has never been bigger. I don't want to propose a specific ban because I am biased towards playing U since it opens up the format and makes it they way it is but I could imagine it being a non-BS, Miracles-specific card that might leave Miracles or let's say UWr Control still playable.

The overall problem of the current format is that every card gets absorbed into Uxy anyways displayed by Decay itself. Its a structural problem of all the mana-/drawfixing, which will never change no matter if brainstorm is around or not because Preordain, Ponder and SDT would be next in line. It seems hard for some people to accept that. With that said, the current reliance on Decay to battle the format-primus could easily be fixed if WotC would print alternatives in other colors

[CabalTherapy]

Thank you for articulating this point so well, it's how I feel too but could never be bothered to type it up as I'd just shake my head and close the thread.

I'm glad someone likes this post.

The overall problem of the current format is that every card gets absorbed into Uxy anyways displayed by Decay itself. Its a structural problem of all the mana-/drawfixing, which will never change no matter if brainstorm is around or not because Preordain, Ponder and SDT would be next in line. It seems hard for some people to accept that. With that said, the current reliance on Decay to battle the format-primus could easily be fixed if WotC would print alternatives in other colors

That's what they did with Modern and we all know how miserable Modern is compared to Legacy.
I think some months back, nevilshute (not sure, might have been someone else) stated, correctly, that we, as Legacy players, should free ourselves from the colour identities this format propagates. Evidently,
Legacy is the "cantrip-format", whereas Vintage is the "mox-format/power-format" and modern is the... - I don't know - I could see the importance of Decay being diminished by removing its main target costing UU. That way, Decay might
see less play and similar cards might pop up again to support decks in different colour combinations. However, I don't see the UU card being banworthy at all.

Therefore, I argue that Brainstorm isn't blue and Deathrite Shaman isn't black/green. Also, Dark Confidant isn't black, Tarmogoyf isn't green, and Sneak Attack isn't red. They are cards that can be utilized by using
Legacy's manabase in order to cast those spells. Sometimes calls such as "blue is so OP" reminds me of my friends and me back then in 2004 (yes, I am not old yet, luckily) when we started to play mtg and thought ourselves to be "water" or "fire" mages. Everyone now who points out that Brainstorm is indeed blue by referring to its casting costs did not get the point.

[Nielsie]

Why should legacy be the cantrip-format? I always thought it would be the format were everything was equal and not supressed by way too powerfull shit like moxen and power.

Ask yourselves this question: if Brainstorm was first printed in the last magic set, would it be banned by the next banlist update? I think it would...

[rlesko]

Ha. Ha. Ha. Hahahahahaha.... I need to breathe...

Yea, stop breathing out of your mouth and understand color diversity and strategic diversity not the same thing. And the latter is more important.

Why should legacy be the cantrip-format? I always thought it would be the format were everything was equal and not supressed by way too powerfull shit like moxen and power.

Ask yourselves this question: if Brainstorm was first printed in the last magic set, would it be banned by the next banlist update? I think it would...

What is the purpose of engaging in such hypotheticals? The discussion will never conclude. Legacy of course has a blue bias, because blue used to be by far and away the best color, and they've printed dumb cards like true name nemesis.

What is wrong with running cantrips? You sure as hell can't play them in modern so it is nice that legacy can play out differently. People like playing with those cards.

[Dice_Box]

Yea, stop breathing out of your mouth and understand color diversity and strategic diversity not the same thing. And the latter is more important.

Yep. And if you asked me what has the strongest hold on this format and forced a single style of building, across so many decks it's not funny, I would state right now hand on heart that the Turbo Zerox style of building takes a dump on Decay from high orbit.

The idea that anything, ANYTHING holds a candle to Zerox is just dumb. Like nedleeds and Lemnear in a jello-fight levels of dumb.

Edit:
For the record, Brainstorm to me is the cornerstone of Zerox, I see them as one and the same. Because where you have Brainstorm you have Ponder and Fetches. Brainstorm is the posterchild for the most strategically crushing strategy I have ever seen in this entire game. The idea that Decay can hold a candle to that... Yea, Jello-Fight.

[taconaut]

The idea that anything, ANYTHING holds a candle to Zerox is just dumb.

Dice, can I ask what the ideal format would look like to you?

[Dice_Box]

Dice, can I ask what the ideal format would look like to you?

Sure. I would like to see a format where there is a place for Aggro (Something that had faded) Combo, tap out control and Tempo. With none of these being overly unbalanced.

While I understand that playing with cantrips is optimal, there was a time Goblins, Maverick and Zoo held a place in this format. I know looking at the past with Sunglasses of Urza helps no one, I do feel like much of the formats soul has be diminished as we perpetuate an arms race to "Who can do the most fucked up thing first". Punctuated now by "Play my lock piece/s" or "Get Bargain on the table".

I understand the march of time though makes this a hollow wish, there will always be new cards, things will change. It's why I don't argue against progress. It's also why these days I also try not to actually debate much about individual cards. What's the point? But for me now, what's my ideal format? One where Goblin Lackey is a card people want banned.

[Megadeus]

I would like a format where I don't feel like the ability to build a deck is suppressed by the fact that my deck at least should begin with 4 brainstorm and 4 ponder or else I'm essentially crippling myself. To me half of the fun of magic is building the deck. Actually at this point, building fun shit is 90% of the fun, because the games certainly aren't entertaining anymore for the most part. I just feel like the art of deck building has been lost on legacy, and the main offender is the fact that it's a 56 card format.

[Sidneyious]

Herp derp, hibbity herp, burp turp.

I'm starting to hate players more than the cards.

[taconaut]

Sure. I would like to see a format where there is a place for Aggro (Something that had faded) Combo, tap out control and Tempo. With none of these being overly unbalanced.

While I understand that playing with cantrips is optimal, there was a time Goblins, Maverick and Zoo held a place in this format. I know looking at the past with Sunglasses of Urza helps no one, I do feel like much of the formats soul has be diminished as we perpetuate an arms race to "Who can do the most fucked up thing first". Punctuated now by "Play my lock piece/s" or "Get Bargain on the table".

I actually feel like most of these have at least some kind of representation, though Aggro in the classical sense has definitely diminished almost completely, and Tempo has been in for some hard times recently, though it's still present. Unfortunately, the "fucked up things" are powerful enough that there really isn't efficient enough dudes that it's still possible to get there through the Red Zone plus some burn (unless you're actually playing Burn, though I suspect that's not what you're looking for). As a storm player, I like to do busted things, but I also see people playing Maverick to some success, though more on a local scale than anything else. I suppose I'm just rambling here, but I just wanted to both acknowledge your perspective and empathize; unfortunately, I think the time of cats and knights has passed for the moment (though, like anything, we may just be a choice printing away).

I understand the march of time though makes this a hollow wish, there will always be new cards, things will change. It's why I don't argue against progress. It's also why these days I also try not to actually debate much about individual cards. What's the point? But for me now, what's my ideal format? One where Goblin Lackey is a card people want banned.

Ironically, I think Deathrite Shaman has more to do with Lackey being benched than Brainstorm, but I get your point.

Interestingly, I feel like Legacy still has much more soul than, say, Modern - that's a format where they got heavy with the hammer, and ended up ousting all of the decks that made modern unique and cool. Like, I get that Pod is obviously ridiculous, and Twin is frustrating, but for me, the sweetest time in Modern was when you could have UR Storm, Birthing Pod, Scapeshift, Tron, Twin, Affinity, Eggs (!) and a bunch of other brews potentially do well at an event - those were all decks you couldn't really play in any other format, but in modern, they were both cool and good. Now, they just banned all the cool things, and it's just allships passing in the night. I'm not saying brainstorm is perfectly analogous to any of those cards, but I do feel it's one of the things that allows cool, weird stuff to be playable in Legacy, and it's something I'd like to preserve.

** Edit to reply to Mega without double-posting **

What decks is that paradigm preventing you from making, Megadeus? Dice says he'd like to see some dudes crash into each other again, a la Zoo and Maverick; what do you want to see? Why would getting rid of cantrips enable that? Even if we get rid of cantrips, is whatever deckbuilding that happens gonna be better than Elves/DnT/Lands/BR reanimator/etc? I think the issue that worries you is the age/solved-ness of the format, which is different than the card brainstorm itself (i.e., brainstorm is a symptom, not the cause)

[nedleeds]

Why should legacy be the cantrip-format? I always thought it would be the format were everything was equal and not supressed by way too powerfull shit like moxen and power.

Ask yourselves this question: if Brainstorm was first printed in the last magic set, would it be banned by the next banlist update? I think it would...

No doubt. 2 points for you.

Legacy shouldn't be burdened by the mistakes. We agree Ancestral is absurd. Black Lotus is absurd. Vintage isn't a 60 card deck building experience. This drives some players away. Others enjoy building with these mistakes and can deal with the wide swings in game play associated with them.

I'd rather have a 60 card deck building experience in Legacy, and go play and build with the insane cards in Vintage.

#inb4banisland #inb4everyonequitvintagewhentheyrestrictedbrainstorm

[CabalTherapy]

No doubt. 2 points for you.

Legacy shouldn't be burdened by the mistakes. We agree Ancestral is absurd. Black Lotus is absurd. Vintage isn't a 60 card deck building experience. This drives some players away. Others enjoy building with these mistakes and can deal with the wide swings in game play associated with them.

I'd rather have a 60 card deck building experience in Legacy, and go play and build with the insane cards in Vintage.

#inb4banisland #inb4everyonequitvintagewhentheyrestrictedbrainstorm

I actually wanted to write inb4 the common suspects ignore my post or simply don't get it but felt it's too childish. Nielsie's statement doesn't lead to a conclusion as rlesko points out
and is common practice to disrupt senseful arguments with hypothetical questions with the intent that people admit that BS would have been banned already if they would have printed it, let's say,
in Khans. Megadeus, since I am pretty sure you're not pro, you may enjoy commander or highlander more than competitive Legacy.
You can build your decks from scratch and use 100 cards instead of 60/15. You keep coming back to the thread and just stating your personal salt about the format. You certainly have the right to it but
not in a discussion which is supposed to be fruitful and thriving (utopia). Nedleeds, as well only talks about his frustration with the current state of Legacy. You might want to have a private chat or another
forum or whatever because posts like yours don't support a discussion and as you are members of a forum and post frequently I assume you care about the community, the content, and Legacy as such.

Nevertheless, I find it slightly amusing that some posts confirm and illustrate what I wrote earlier today.

[Megadeus]

Of course I'm not pro. I play legacy mainly. And I'm not sure why people think that just because I think brainstorm is overpowered therefore I'm not good at this game. Everytime I bring it up, I have people say, "well that's what you should play if you want to win", or as a man on a facebook put it, I would understand why the card is fine if I day two GPs and make top 8's and didn't suck. I do well at almost every event I play at. Locally and 20-60 man event I've top 8'd every one of them the past 4 months. It's not a matter of being bad at this game, it's a matter of realizing when a card is very blatantly overpowered