All B/R update speculation.

[Rune]

Can Survival of the Fittest be unbanned now that Abrupt Decay sees so much play?

Yes. The format has gotten significantly stronger overall since it was banned, and there have also been printed a non-zero amount of cards that are good against it. I'm thinking Decay, Revoker and Extraction... more? DRS and Cage don't really count since those can be beaten by the Survival engine alone.

I doubt it's a card that Elves is really interested in, but it could give Maverick-esque decks a chance to compete again. Also, it's a card that you can't just easily jam into a shell with Brainstorm/FoW.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Full list of banned cards that are pretty clearly weaker than cards that are currently legal:

Bazaar of Baghdad
Black Vise
Channel
Earthcraft
Fastbond
Frantic Search
Goblin Recruiter
Hermit Druid
Mana Drain
Memory Jar
Mental Misstep
Mind Twist
Mind's Desire
Necropotence
Oath of Druids
Shahrazad
Survival of the Fittest
Timetwister
Tolarian Academy
Wheel of Fortune
Windfall
Worldgorger Dragon
Yawgmoth's Bargain

This is by no means advocating for all these cards to come unbanned, just that if any one of them was unbanned it would less relevant than cards like Brainstorm or Griselbrand.

[rufus]

Full list of banned cards that are pretty clearly weaker than cards that are currently legal...
This is by no means advocating for all these cards to come unbanned, just that if any one of them was unbanned it would less relevant than cards like Brainstorm or Griselbrand.

If you make an assertion like that, you could, at least, give the example better card. That said, several of the cards on that list - like Wheel of Fortune and Timetwister - are easily as bad as Flash.

[Dice_Box]

What? Really? Your going to start with saying "These are the cards that can be unbanned, Vintage Dredge" and then expect anyone to think your not crazy? Man sometimes you come up with well thought out (and dickish, but at lest well thought out) posts. This, this is not one of those times.

[menace13]

I'm pretty sure I could beat 95% of legacy decks that don't pack 6~ dedicated GY hate cards, with Bazaars and 4 LEDs. Easily.

Dedicated does not include DRS.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

I'm pretty sure the thrust of the post by IBA wasn't to say that X/Y/Z are totally safe safe to unban as much as it was about stating the power-level considerations for the B&R list don't make a whole lot of sense when cards like Griselbrand, Gaea's Cradle, Brainstorm, LED, and Ad Nauseum are running around free. Many of these cards easily eclipse banned cards in raw power level, yet will likely not be banned.

Makes sense to me.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

What? Really? Your going to start with saying "These are the cards that can be unbanned, Vintage Dredge" and then expect anyone to think your not crazy? Man sometimes you come up with well thought out (and dickish, but at lest well thought out) posts. This, this is not one of those times.

I really get tired of people I don't fucking know on this site trash-talking me like we're old friends or rivals or I give a shit about them or something. I don't give a shit what your opinion of me is, stop trying to tell me about it.

Bazaar would be an awful card to unban... but people would just start maindecking better hate and run the sideboard cards that cripple Dredge, and the deck would languish in the maybe 10% of the metagame at most segment. Even assuming it weren't intrinsically crippled by availability issues.

The point isn't, "Bazaar wouldn't create an oppressive metagame," the point is, we already have an oppressive metagame.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm pretty sure the thrust of the post by IBA wasn't to say that X/Y/Z are totally safe safe to unban as much as it was about stating the power-level considerations for the B&R list don't make a whole lot of sense when cards like Griselbrand, Gaea's Cradle, Brainstorm, LED, and Ad Nauseum are running around free. Many of these cards easily eclipse banned cards in raw power level, yet will likely not be banned.

Makes sense to me.

Awesome, some people can read.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If you make an assertion like that, you could, at least, give the example better card. That said, several of the cards on that list - like Wheel of Fortune and Timetwister - are easily as bad as Flash.

I am not a storm expert admittedly but given that like 50% of the decks in the field, and 75% at the top tables, are running Force of Will, this seems pretty categorically not true.

[Dice_Box]

Welcome to the internet, where I am more than free to voice my views, just as you are. If you do not like it, you know where the real world is, go hang out there and be a dick to others there. You know, when they can tell you to stop being a dick to your face. Anyway, lets have a look at your list.

Bazaar is just fucked, I can honestly think of no good reason to make Vintage dredge a legal Modern deck. If in Vintage, unpowered Bazaar decks can beat powered decks with a large amount of hate packed, then thats not a Legacy safe card. "Run more hate" is not an answer to "Broken in half" because if it was, you would not want Brainstorm gone.

Channel... Really? Lets just not go there.

Fastbond with all the land decks running around? Sounds fair.

Recruiter is safe, will stay banned on time constants alone.

Memory Jar, Draw seven is not safe, not this easily. No.

MM... Please god no.

Minds Desire. Storm into Ominshows Win con with a single card... Yea. No.

Necropotence. I don't like it, but I can not just shoot it down. This one I would like to see tested.

Oath of Druids happens to be the best deck in Vintage. Lets not.

Shahrazad... Look I know your a SWELL GUY and like to SWELL GUY people, but honestly, no. Come on, even you can not truly be as much of a dick as it takes to play this fucking thing.

Survival of the Fittest. I do not think this is safe, but I am willing to see it tested and then have a second look.

Timetwister. Because playing "I do not care what you kept, now you have to Mull" is always fun. Add on High tide, storm, anyone playing blue... Draw 7 for 3 mana. No. Just not safe.

Academy... With Crop Rotation this thing would not be fun. Its like cradle, only a lot worse and it makes Blue. That's great. You don't have Jewellery but it is just as breakable in this format as it is in Vintage. If you want to add Timetwister to that too, well, fuck that.

Wheel. Timetwister but I get to Brainstorm cards back onto the top of my Library and draw them? Hell yes, totally safe.

Yawgmoth's Bargain. Yea, please let me play this over Ad Nauseam. Whatever could go wrong when I no longer have to limit the CMC of my cards?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Welcome to the internet, where I am more than free to voice my views, just as you are. If you do not like it, you know where the real world is, go hang out there and be a dick to others there. You know, when they can tell you to stop being a dick to your face. Anyway, lets have a look at your list.

So brave of you to become a martyr for free speech just because someone told you they didn't give a shit about your random unsolicited opinions.

Bazaar is just fucked, I can honestly think of no good reason to make Vintage dredge a legal Modern deck. If in Vintage, unpowered Bazaar decks can beat powered decks with a large amount of hate packed, then thats not a Legacy safe card. "Run more hate" is not an answer to "Broken in half" because if it was, you would not want Brainstorm gone.

Channel... Really? Lets just not go there.

Fastbond with all the land decks running around? Sounds fair.

Recruiter is safe, will stay banned on time constants alone.

Memory Jar, Draw seven is not safe, not this easily. No.

MM... Please god no.

Minds Desire. Storm into Ominshows Win con with a single card... Yea. No.

Necropotence. I don't like it, but I can not just shoot it down. This one I would like to see tested.

Oath of Druids happens to be the best deck in Vintage. Lets not.

Shahrazad... Look I know your a troll and like to troll people, but honestly, no. Come on, even you can not truly be as much of a dick as it takes to play this fucking thing.

Survival of the Fittest. I do not think this is safe, but I am willing to see it tested and then have a second look.

Timetwister. Because playing "I do not care what you kept, now you have to Mull" is always fun. Add on High tide, storm, anyone playing blue... Draw 7 for 3 mana. No. Just not safe.

Academy... With Crop Rotation this thing would not be fun. Its like cradle, only a lot worse and it makes Blue. That's great. You don't have Jewellery but it is just as breakable in this format as it is in Vintage. If you want to add Timetwister to that too, well, fuck that.

Wheel. Timetwister but I get to Brainstorm cards back onto the top of my Library and draw them? Hell yes, totally safe.

Yawgmoth's Bargain. Yea, please let me play this over Ad Nauseam. Whatever could go wrong when I no longer have to limit the CMC of my cards?

Okay so these were all variants of "nuff said," did you have any actual arguments or what.

And no, this is discussion about individual cards, it's not about what the format would look like with half the list unbanned simultaneously; that's pretty unanswerable.

[Dice_Box]

If you can say what's on you mind, I have the same right. Anyway, I really don't want all my posts deleted, so I will drop this part of the conversation.

What I would like to know is how you feel cards like Bazaar, Timetwister, Academy and Wheel are safe. In the format, as it is right now, how would unbaning any of those four cards make the format better? Not even touching things like MM which would make the format even more blue. How would opening the option of playing those cards as a four of in Legacy help the format? Please, tell me, because I can not think of a single thing it would do other that fuck us all.

[sjmcc13]

Full list of banned cards that are pretty clearly weaker than cards that are currently legal:

Bazaar of Baghdad
.
.
.
Goblin Recruiter
Hermit Druid
.
.
.
Mind's Desire
Necropotence
Oath of Druids
.
.
.
Timetwister
.
.
.
Wheel of Fortune

Umm, ya I have to strongly disagree that these cards are weaker then currently legal cards.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

If you can say what's on you mind, I have the same right.

Well there's a hell of an irrelevancy.

What I would like to know is how you feel cards like Bazaar, Timetwister, Academy and Wheel are safe. In the format, as it is right now, how would unbaning any of those four cards make the format better?

I have highlighted the words that illustrate that you are not grasping the premise of the conversation.

[rufus]

I am not a storm expert admittedly but given that like 50% of the decks in the field, and 75% at the top tables, are running Force of Will, this seems pretty categorically not true.

Flash/Hulk is beatable too, but it polarized the format into flash and anti-flash decks. FWIW, those draw-7s don't have to be in a combo deck to do stupid things. Wheel readily slots into Dragon Stompy or dredge strategies too.

Shahrazad... Look I know your a troll and like to troll people, but honestly, no. Come on, even you can not truly be as much of a dick as it takes to play this fucking thing.

In IBA's defense, Shrahrazad is banned for reasons other than its power level.

[Dice_Box]

No, I understand. You are claiming that there are cards that equal or do more harm than the ones listed. I am saying that, if this was the case, if there are really cards that equal or exceed the power level of the listed cards, than they must be capable of being unbanned. So if your point is, the format already deals with worse (a false statement) then these you are by extension claiming that the format can handle these cards too.

Thus is not a point I agree with and I do not think that a card like Brand can be put next to a card like Wheel just because they both say "Draw 7". I also disagree that this logic can be equally compared to Cradle or Ad Nauseam.

Edit.
Yea, I know it's banned for other reasons. I hope it stays that way. But I must ask, what card in Legacy does something comparable to it that it should find its place on a list such as this?

[Jander78]

Thread is being closely monitored by the Mod staff. Warnings and bannings will be handed out with further flames / insults flying around. Keep it on topic and civil.

[menace13]

Thus is not a point I agree with and I do not think that a card like Brand can be put next to a card like Wheel just because they both say "Draw 7". I also disagree that this logic can be equally compared to Cradle or Ad Nauseam.

I'm not so sure that Draw 7 lists would be better than Reanimator. Definitely not in a head to head at least. Maybe not even better than Sneak Show lists. Does any of the Draw 7s make storm lists better than what we have already? Maybe the draw 7s make High Tide better.

Yea, I know it's banned for other reasons. I hope it stays that way. But I must ask, what card in Legacy does something comparable to it that it should find its place on a list such as this?

Cbalance + Top

[Dice_Box]

Haha. Ok. Ok. It's not quite the same, but yea, it can feel like it. You sir, get a gold star for making me laugh.

Edit.
Diminishing Returns is used in some storm builds with quite an effect. If you give us Wheel, yes, I would see play in TES and it would hurt the format.

[rufus]

I'm not so sure that Draw 7 lists would be better than Reanimator. Definitely not in a head to head at least. Maybe not even better than Sneak Show lists. Does any of the Draw 7s make storm lists better than what we have already? Maybe the draw 7s make High Tide better

All in belcher-style storm (though vulnerable to counters) is absurd with the addition of Wheel of Fortune. Things get a bit more involved when you start looking at aggro/combo/control approaches.