View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #19361
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    Mate, you didn't understand the mantra of this threat: "All problems that Legacy ever had, has or will have come down to Brainstorm"
    Not quite true. Mental Fuckup was its own massive and independent issues.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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  2. #19362
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    The fact that Treasure Cruise was blatantly overpowered in a Brainstorm-less format would seem to indicate that banning Treasure Cruise was not an attempt to ban around Brainstorm, as the card was clearly quite overpowered even without Brainstorm. Ditto with Dig Through Time. Heck, Modern doesn't even have Ponder or Preordain, and Treasure Cruise was still abusive just off the back of Serum Visions and Thought Scour. So the idea that Treasure Cruise was in any way dependent on Brainstorm, and/or was banned to avoid a Brainstorm ban, appears quite silly. Top is a little more plausible, but it seems there were time concerns involved in it as well, which a Brainstorm ban wouldn't fix.
    I see merits in both arguments of Finn's and yours.
    I am sure as innocent as Brainstorm still appears to many people today, the banning of Cruise, Dig, and Top was not intended to save Brainstorm. However, all the blatant overpowered cards people pointed to were banned, and they still do not realize Brainstorm is THE culprit, and that's why the past lessons are so valuable.
    Would Cruise be still broken with Brainstorm banned? Likely, but it is not an excuse for Brainstorm being safe. Moreover, a lot of cards are considered broken in Modern, but completely fine in Legacy, e.g., mana accelerators, Artifact lands, and what, I found Jitte is banned in Modern! The idea to make Modern slower makes Cruise a much more powerful card. Remember there were arguments fast Legacy combos with consistency (reads Brainstorm) keep Treasure Cruise in check. Again, not arguing Cruise would be safe for Legacy, but rather a comparison with Modern does not tell much.
    You also agree Top is more clear cut that would be perfectly fine in Legacy without Brainstorm. I did not shed tears for Cruise or Dig as they are at least blue, but Top is a big loss for the format. By depriving other colours an efficient (and fair) card selection tool, the necessity for blue is even more (or you go more linear and redundant). I hope Top can serve as a big lesson for Legacy, and Brainstorm can be dealt with before more mistakes happen.
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  3. #19363

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by kinda View Post
    I think so, according to merriam webster:

    Definition of oppressive
    1 : unreasonably burdensome
    2 : tyrannical an oppressive government
    3 : overwhelming or depressing to the spirit or senses

    1 and 3 seem right .

    Oppressive with Brainstorm meaning you either have to play it or be fully prepared to try and beat it. Most people will do one of these two but that doesn't mean it's not oppressive. There are a number of cards still on the banned list that wouldn't require near the effort to beat than brainstorm.
    That sounds less like "its oppressive" and more like "I dont like it".

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    And it is seeming like DRS is next on the list to fall because of brainstorm (as it currently stands now it's probably the most bannable card anyway)
    Deathrite Shaman is bannable because of "grumble grumble brainstorm grumble grumble"? Whats the correlation there? The way you worded this makes it sound like you believe there are a huge number of banned cards that would be fine without brainstorm. I can think of one.

  4. #19364
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by tsabo_tavoc View Post
    However, all the blatant overpowered cards people pointed to were banned, and they still do not realize Brainstorm is THE culprit, and that's why the past lessons are so valuable.
    Would Cruise be still broken with Brainstorm banned? Likely, but it is not an excuse for Brainstorm being safe.
    Fun fact: Brainstorm, Ponder, Treasure Cruise, DRS and DTT would all be pretty mediocre cards without Fetchlands.
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  5. #19365
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Fun fact: Brainstorm, Ponder, Treasure Cruise, DRS and DTT would all be pretty mediocre cards without Fetchlands.
    Fetchlands are a big mistake. They are 10 cards though, and hence very inconvenient to ban. I do hope they are banned one day, or if never, at least Brainstorm.
    Fetchlands are not doing good to Modern either, but WotC loves them to sell Master sets.
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  6. #19366
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    It's amazing people still get a kick from pointing out how good fetchlands are with DRS and cantrips etc. It's like it's some secret that they're graciously unveiling for the rest of us.

    'Brainstorm and DRS are very powerful cards...'

    'ACKSHUALLY'
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    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    The fact that Treasure Cruise was blatantly overpowered in a Brainstorm-less format would seem to indicate that banning Treasure Cruise was not an attempt to ban around Brainstorm, as the card was clearly quite overpowered even without Brainstorm. Ditto with Dig Through Time. Heck, Modern doesn't even have Ponder or Preordain, and Treasure Cruise was still abusive just off the back of Serum Visions and Thought Scour. So the idea that Treasure Cruise was in any way dependent on Brainstorm, and/or was banned to avoid a Brainstorm ban, appears quite silly. Top is a little more plausible, but it seems there were time concerns involved in it as well, which a Brainstorm ban wouldn't fix.
    Couldn't you say this about probe too? Banned in modern, restricted in vintage, but legacy players are like, man this card is totally fine and makes really interesting games!
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  8. #19368
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    It's amazing people still get a kick from pointing out how good fetchlands are with DRS and cantrips etc. It's like it's some secret that they're graciously unveiling for the rest of us.
    Is it so untrue that it fits to ridicule the point made or is just too painful to admit, that Brainstorm isnt the reason TC/DTT/DRS are broken, but Fetchlands being the cause for Brainstorms/Ponders/DRS'/TCs/DTTs powerlevel?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
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  9. #19369
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    It is possible that cards can be broken independently of one another.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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  10. #19370
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Fun fact: Brainstorm, Ponder, Treasure Cruise, DRS and DTT would all be pretty mediocre cards without Fetchlands.
    Brainstorm and DRS, yes, but the others not so much.

    Even without an external shuffle source, Ponder is insane. It gives you so much card selection for so little investment. Certainly it gets better when you can look at the top 3, take the 1-2 you want, and then shuffle away the chaff with a fetch, but it's still an amazing card without fetches. It's a high pick even in (powered) cube.

    The Delve spells are an interesting case as well; I'm not certain fetchlands are what make them broken. While every fetch activation makes a pseudo-Lotus Petal, that alone isn't going to fuel Delve spells all that quickly. Cheap/efficient spells (including cantrips) fill up the yard so much faster than 1 land drop a turn could ever hope to. The example of Khans/BFZ standard supports this line of thought; practically every deck was running 10+ fetches and the Delve spells weren't broken in the least. When the format revolves around 3-5 CMC creatures, graveyards just aren't filled as quickly as in formats that center around 1 CMC spells (and retarded shit like GitGud Probe).

  11. #19371
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brainstorm Ape View Post
    Brainstorm and DRS, yes, but the others not so much.

    Even without an external shuffle source, Ponder is insane. It gives you so much card selection for so little investment. Certainly it gets better when you can look at the top 3, take the 1-2 you want, and then shuffle away the chaff with a fetch, but it's still an amazing card without fetches. It's a high pick even in (powered) cube.

    The Delve spells are an interesting case as well; I'm not certain fetchlands are what make them broken. While every fetch activation makes a pseudo-Lotus Petal, that alone isn't going to fuel Delve spells all that quickly. Cheap/efficient spells (including cantrips) fill up the yard so much faster than 1 land drop a turn could ever hope to. The example of Khans/BFZ standard supports this line of thought; practically every deck was running 10+ fetches and the Delve spells weren't broken in the least. When the format revolves around 3-5 CMC creatures, graveyards just aren't filled as quickly as in formats that center around 1 CMC spells (and retarded shit like GitGud Probe).
    Without the ability to cherrypick and shuffle away the rest, Ponder would be significantly worse and i would go as far and start comparing it Preordain in terms of powerlevel.

    Delve spells are indeed a more complex case as they are just the top of the pyramid build by Brainstorm, Ponder, Probe and Fetchlands. I feel its more like Fetches break the cantrips which create the groundwork for Delve with the ever same [T1 - Fetch, Ponder] + [T2 - Brainstorm, fetch].
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  12. #19372

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    “Treating dandruff by decapitation”

  13. #19373

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Couldn't you say this about probe too? Banned in modern, restricted in vintage, but legacy players are like, man this card is totally fine and makes really interesting games!
    No, you couldn't accurately say it about Probe. Because the statement was about cards banned in Legacy; as Gitaxian Probe wasn't banned in Legacy, arguing "the banning of Gitaxian Probe in Legacy was not a way to avoid banning Brainstorm" is a complete non sequitur because Gitaxian Probe isn't banned.

  14. #19374
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Couldn't you say this about probe too? Banned in modern, restricted in vintage, but legacy players are like, man this card is totally fine and makes really interesting games!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    No, you couldn't accurately say it about Probe. Because the statement was about cards banned in Legacy; as Gitaxian Probe wasn't banned in Legacy, arguing "the banning of Gitaxian Probe in Legacy was not a way to avoid banning Brainstorm" is a complete non sequitur because Gitaxian Probe isn't banned.
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  15. #19375

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Are you confused by his statement, or my response?

    My argument was that it was goofy to argue that Treasure Cruise was banned to avoid banning Brainstorm when one can point out that Treasure Cruise was able to be insanely good with much weaker cantrips. Then they said "couldn't this argument apply to Gitaxian Probe?" The answer is no, because Gitaxian Probe isn't banned, so of course it doesn't apply. So, essentially, the argument is:
    "Treasure Cruise wasn't banned to avoid banning Brainstorm, which can be demonstrated by Treasure Cruise being insane in Modern, where it didn't have Brainstorm."
    To try to argue this could be used with Gitaxian Probe would be saying "Gitaxian Probe wasn't banned to avoid banning Brainstorm..." which doesn't make sense because Gitaxian Probe isn't banned. Unless I'm misunderstanding what they were saying?

  16. #19376

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Why overcomplicate things then the actual state of affairs is so blatantly obvious? BS, Probe, Ponder are all broken beyond repair and need to be removed from the format asap.

  17. #19377

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa View Post
    Why overcomplicate things then the actual state of affairs is so blatantly obvious? BS, Probe, Ponder are all broken beyond repair and need to be removed from the format asap.
    Maybe its because a vast majority of people dont agree with that assessment

  18. #19378
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by WashableWater1 View Post
    Maybe its because a vast majority of people dont agree with that assessment
    I think it's undeniable, that Brainstorm and Ponder are warping the format around themselves, if paired with free shuffle effects. There is also no question that decks without these tools suffer from variance significantly more, which is relevant in tournaments.

    There is only disagreement about the consequences towards the format and solutions.
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    I think it's undeniable, that Brainstorm and Ponder are warping the format around themselves, if paired with free shuffle effects. There is also no question that decks without these tools suffer from variance significantly more, which is relevant in tournaments.

    There is only disagreement about the consequences towards the format and solutions.
    This. The argument is no longer whether or not these cards are busted. All of them are banned or restricted in every other format for a reason.
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  20. #19380
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Except you know, the vast majority of people actually playing the format. The posters in this thread should just make their own legacy without all those cards and be joined by the five other people that might play it.

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