View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #19441
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by kinda View Post
    Instead of banning brainstorm, hasbro could at least unban the cards worse than brainstorm. I would propose:

    Earthcraft
    Mind twist
    Frantic search
    Goblin recruiter
    Survival of the fittest
    Hermit druid
    Fastbond


    There might be others worse than brainstorm but it's harder to say.
    There is zero way Hermit Druid and Fastbond are weaker than Brainstorm. Both cards essentially win the game immediately once resolved in the right deck.

    Survival is a monster - since it's been picking up in Vintage recently and feels absurd play against, even if I have 7 directed graveyard hate cards and disenchants, I'm putting that as way too good.

    Frantic Search is definitely a very powerful card but seeing as it doesn't kill immediately by itself and I haven't played against it with any regularity I can't really comment.

    Recruiter is banned basically for time concerns, same as Top.

    Earthcraft and Mind Twist are probably fine, and are contextually weaker than Brainstorm in an average Legacy game.

    But seriously, HERMIT DRUID AND FASTBOND?

  2. #19442
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by tsabo_tavoc View Post
    Banning Brainstorm would hurt blue combos much more than fairer blue decks.

    Ponder and Preordain would still be the best consistency engine that I would not worry blue being out of favour.

    Reducing consistency from blue combos would give nonblue decks a much better chance to fight against them, especially the black decks with their Thoughtseize being relevant again.
    Yeah, you'd punish blue based combo decks like SnT while leaving DRS+BlueShell+Goodstuff pretty much unharmed and Ponder+Preordain+Probe as the obviously best shell for consistency, which non-blue engines still can't compete with.

    How should that make the metagame more diverse, if you chop down combo decks and make DRS+Ponder+Preordain+Probe an even more obvious choice to select?

    P.S. calling discard irrelevant because of brainstorm is a wack argument by itself. Every Duress, Thoughtseize, Hymn or Therapy played in the format just discredits the claim.
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  3. #19443

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FGCmtg View Post
    There is zero way Hermit Druid and Fastbond are weaker than Brainstorm. Both cards essentially win the game immediately once resolved in the right deck.

    Survival is a monster - since it's been picking up in Vintage recently and feels absurd play against, even if I have 7 directed graveyard hate cards and disenchants, I'm putting that as way too good.

    Frantic Search is definitely a very powerful card but seeing as it doesn't kill immediately by itself and I haven't played against it with any regularity I can't really comment.

    Recruiter is banned basically for time concerns, same as Top.

    Earthcraft and Mind Twist are probably fine, and are contextually weaker than Brainstorm in an average Legacy game.

    But seriously, HERMIT DRUID AND FASTBOND?
    Lots of cards win the game when resolved but that hardly makes them better than brainstorm. It's a 2 mana creature that has to untap to do anything and uses the gy. So literally every interaction spell stops it...swords...fow...leyline of the void...lightning bolt...thoughtseize t1. It would be playable i imagine but I doubt better than brainstorm.

    So Fastbond was a loose inclusion...idk what the deck would look like.

    I was on the ban survival train when it was legal but now decks run lots of ways to interact with it md. Drs...decay...phyrexian revoker...and gy hate is stronger. Surgical/lotv in particular. Similar to druid it would be good but hardly a necessary card to play i imagine.

  4. #19444
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by kinda View Post
    Lots of cards win the game when resolved but that hardly makes them better than brainstorm. It's a 2 mana creature that has to untap to do anything and uses the gy. So literally every interaction spell stops it...swords...fow...leyline of the void...lightning bolt...thoughtseize t1. It would be playable i imagine but I doubt better than brainstorm.

    So Fastbond was a loose inclusion...idk what the deck would look like.

    I was on the ban survival train when it was legal but now decks run lots of ways to interact with it md. Drs...decay...phyrexian revoker...and gy hate is stronger. Surgical/lotv in particular. Similar to druid it would be good but hardly a necessary card to play i imagine.
    Just put Fastbond in Lands to start, I guess some deck based around Diminishing Returns and fast mana and storm would appear at some point, or something equally as broken.

    Shallow Grave Druid kills immediately, with the upside of you can just cast it. So it's a higher success rate Griselbrand for fast combo decks that you can cast.

    I had Vintage dredge hate when playing vs it (rips, cages and priests, and plows for vengevines, disenchants for survival, plus forces, drains, pierce...) the card is silly.

    (Yes, there is definitely hyperbole and exaggeration in this post, but that seems to be the primary mode of discussion in this thread)

  5. #19445
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    With the printing of Hollow One, no one should be clamouring for Survival to come back.
    Which was always the problem, the more creatures and interactions that get printed the better Survival gets, it will only get more powerful over time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    P.S. calling discard irrelevant because of brainstorm is a wack argument by itself. Every Duress, Thoughtseize, Hymn or Therapy played in the format just discredits the claim.
    While certainly not irrelevant completely, the protection BS affords decks by hiding pieces on top of your library to save them from a Duress or Seize is certainly one of the contributing reasons that those discard spells aren't as powerful in the format as they could be.

  6. #19446

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReAnimator View Post
    While certainly not irrelevant completely, the protection BS affords decks by hiding pieces on top of your library to save them from a Duress or Seize is certainly one of the contributing reasons that those discard spells aren't as powerful in the format as they could be.
    All the more reason Brainstorm is too powerful and needs the ban it's needed for years. Helping discard out by eliminating this escape valve for control would help out the format so much.

  7. #19447

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Ya know, I've seen Legacy players use the insult of, "Go play Modern," whenever it's suggested something might actually be too powerful for Legacy or should be banned. Do people not realize that if you unban Fastbond the format will literally be 100% Fastbond vs. anti-Fastbond decks? Do you really just want to turn Legacy into an even shittier version of Vintage? Oh yeah, let's unban Survival of the Fittest cause Deathrite Shaman exists because obviously Survival decks won't just play their own Deathrite Shamans.

    If anything, this thread proves there isn't a single group of players that's worse at evaluating banned lists than Legacy players.

  8. #19448
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReAnimator View Post
    While certainly not irrelevant completely, the protection BS affords decks by hiding pieces on top of your library to save them from a Duress or Seize is certainly one of the contributing reasons that those discard spells aren't as powerful in the format as they could be.
    My issue with the original statement is that it implies discard is next to unplayable, despite us knowing how oppressive Probe/Therapy/Pyromancer was/is at times and also despite Duress/Hymn/Therapy being staples in countless decks.

    Sure, Brainstorm MIGHT be used to mitigate some damage (instead for fixing your draw/hand, like with the classic T2 BS into Fetch), but that does not affect the viability of discard at all. I have never heared any decent storm or Grixis player whinning, that their discard is trash and unplayable, because their opponent was hiding FoW on top. Discard IS absurdly powerful despite Brainstorm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
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  9. #19449
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    My issue with the original statement is that it implies discard is next to unplayable, despite us knowing how oppressive Probe/Therapy/Pyromancer was/is at times and also despite Duress/Hymn/Therapy being staples in countless decks.

    Sure, Brainstorm MIGHT be used to mitigate some damage (instead for fixing your draw/hand, like with the classic T2 BS into Fetch), but that does not affect the viability of discard at all. I have never heared any decent storm or Grixis player whinning, that their discard is trash and unplayable, because their opponent was hiding FoW on top. Discard IS absurdly powerful despite Brainstorm.

    In storm the discard is strong cause you can win in the same turn as your discard, so hiding a counter on top isn't as useful unless you can then draw it again that turn.

    But as a disruptive element, like in a jund or midrange or "fair" deck, targeted discard is certainly lacking especially vs 2 card combo decks like S&T etc.

    The meta isn't in a place like that so much right now mostly with S&T and Reanimator being pushed out of the format for the most part, but a few years ago this absolutely was a thing and a reason that non blue disruption wasn't really a viable strategy in playing legacy.

    Again, not saying discard isn't playable, it certainly is, probably more so now than it has in years, just that BS is a thing that makes it less good, to some degree. So i agree with you that the original statement isn't accurate.

  10. #19450
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I was just reading Cedric Phillips’ comments in the state of magic thread. What struck me was the bit about too much shuffling to cover Legacy. Considering how helpful it was when scg hosted Legacy every week, and how bad it has been since they ended it, in think we should seriously consider that to be important information. I would have simply considered it an interesting thought until I realized that BANNING ALL TEN FETCHLANDS would seriously curtail the strength of Brainstorm without the need to ban it. And at the same tome we give scg a strong argument for hosting legacy tournaments on a regular basis again.
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  11. #19451

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Watersaw View Post
    Both have a turn 3 kill that doesn't require going "all in."
    So? They still show that there are alternative engines that don't directly attack the cantrip shell. Killing your opponent is a great way to stop them in Magic.

    I actually don't think Survival would be a big deal if it were unbanned, even with Deathrite Shaman still legal. What are they going to do that's more broken than what already happens in Legacy? OK, cool, you played a two mana enchantment that doesn't do anything until you put another mana into it, at which point it probably still doesn't do anything unless you have another mana? Then, even if you do your cool thing, what, now you've got some 4/4s or something? Griselbrand is legal, Tendrils of Agony is legal, Show and Tell is legal...plus, they can needle you, decay you, use their deathrite on your 4/4s, multiple copies of survival aren't really great, sometimes you draw a hand of a bunch of unplayable Rumbling Baloths and just die...I dunno, I'd be excited to be proven wrong, but I just don't see it.

    **Edit to respond to Finn who snuck in under me:

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    What struck me was the bit about too much shuffling to cover Legacy. BANNING ALL TEN FETCHLANDS would seriously curtail the strength of Brainstorm without the need to ban it. And at the same tome we give scg a strong argument for hosting legacy tournaments on a regular basis again.
    As I have mentioned before, banning Fetches would be a huge deal, potentially making Legacy much more interesting/physically quicker and easier to play/etc, but no amount of additional SCG coverage support will make up for $1000+ duals, which is what banning fetches would create.

    If the reserved list didn't exist, it'd be an attractive option (outside of the ugliness and inelegance of banning ten cards), but the financial realities related to the fetches and duals makes it unfeasible.

  12. #19452

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    So? They still show that there are alternative engines that don't directly attack the cantrip shell. Killing your opponent is a great way to stop them in Magic.

    I actually don't think Survival would be a big deal if it were unbanned, even with Deathrite Shaman still legal. What are they going to do that's more broken than what already happens in Legacy? OK, cool, you played a two mana enchantment that doesn't do anything until you put another mana into it, at which point it probably still doesn't do anything unless you have another mana? Then, even if you do your cool thing, what, now you've got some 4/4s or something? Griselbrand is legal, Tendrils of Agony is legal, Show and Tell is legal...plus, they can needle you, decay you, use their deathrite on your 4/4s, multiple copies of survival aren't really great, sometimes you draw a hand of a bunch of unplayable Rumbling Baloths and just die...I dunno, I'd be excited to be proven wrong, but I just don't see it.
    Isn't a common stereotype of Legacy that you get combo killed on turn 1/2 and/or die to Force of Will? You mentioned Griselbrand, Tendrils, and Show & Tell all of which do this. No mention of how other fair decks beat Survival outside of cards that would be played in a Survival deck. The reason Survival should remain banned is because it consolidates the fair decks far more than Deathrite is doing now. There is zero reason to play any other fair deck besides the best Survival deck if its unbanned.

  13. #19453

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    As I have mentioned before, banning Fetches would be a huge deal, potentially making Legacy much more interesting/physically quicker and easier to play/etc, but no amount of additional SCG coverage support will make up for $1000+ duals, which is what banning fetches would create.
    Banning fetches *dramatically* reduces the value of land types on the non-basics, and instantly increases the number of viable alternatives for most decks.

    Edit: I should say, increases the design space of viable alternatives. Fastlands are the only ones that are really viable currently, if fetches were banned. Checklands could make a brief appearance.

  14. #19454
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReAnimator View Post
    In storm the discard is strong cause you can win in the same turn as your discard, so hiding a counter on top isn't as useful unless you can then draw it again that turn.

    But as a disruptive element, like in a jund or midrange or "fair" deck, targeted discard is certainly lacking especially vs 2 card combo decks like S&T etc.

    The meta isn't in a place like that so much right now mostly with S&T and Reanimator being pushed out of the format for the most part, but a few years ago this absolutely was a thing and a reason that non blue disruption wasn't really a viable strategy in playing legacy.

    Again, not saying discard isn't playable, it certainly is, probably more so now than it has in years, just that BS is a thing that makes it less good, to some degree. So i agree with you that the original statement isn't accurate.
    This. Every deck that plays discard that actually puts up results besides Depths also plays counters or just kills ( in storm case). I know as a deadguy/rock player I've died many times after I turn 1 thought seize, opponent brainstorms, hides relevant things, then kills me next turn. Discard is good in the format, but as it turns out it's best with brainstorm
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  15. #19455

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FGCmtg View Post
    Just put Fastbond in Lands to start, I guess some deck based around Diminishing Returns and fast mana and storm would appear at some point, or something equally as broken.

    Shallow Grave Druid kills immediately, with the upside of you can just cast it. So it's a higher success rate Griselbrand for fast combo decks that you can cast.

    I had Vintage dredge hate when playing vs it (rips, cages and priests, and plows for vengevines, disenchants for survival, plus forces, drains, pierce...) the card is silly.

    (Yes, there is definitely hyperbole and exaggeration in this post, but that seems to be the primary mode of discussion in this thread)
    A slightly better exploration or as part of a clunky multi card combo doesn't sound world shattering. This was probably the most questionable of the 7 I suggested though. I'd still be very surprised if people chose to play it over brainstorm...though maybe some bonkers deck would run both and make it unclear which is better.

    Your druid stormy deck doesn't sound like it's beating grixis delver or pile. It would probably be comically good vs chalice and thalia decks though. Even more so than Fastbond, druid decks would likely run both druid and brainstorm making the choice non existent...but I doubt if you could only pick one of the two that anyone would pick druid over brainstorm.

    I have no idea what the vintage version looks like. The old survival legacy deck was very durdly if didn't find/resolve survival.

  16. #19456

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeckBird View Post
    Isn't a common stereotype of Legacy that you get combo killed on turn 1/2 and/or die to Force of Will? You mentioned Griselbrand, Tendrils, and Show & Tell all of which do this. No mention of how other fair decks beat Survival outside of cards that would be played in a Survival deck. The reason Survival should remain banned is because it consolidates the fair decks far more than Deathrite is doing now. There is zero reason to play any other fair deck besides the best Survival deck if its unbanned.
    This is a very reasonable question to ask - the reason I mentioned those cards specifically is to address the (alleged) combo aspect of survival, and how it's not a big deal, which it sounds like you feel is a fair point.

    With respect to the fair decks, without having seen whatever survival pile emerges, I still think I would rather be on the Czech or Grixis plan if you have me the choice of one of those or Survival head-to-head. Does taking a turn off to cast an enchantment that doesn't do anything immediately line up well against Spell Pierce or Abrupt Decay?

    I feel like the threats are so efficient, and the cantrips so consistent, that even having survival wouldn't put you in an insane place against the top decks as they stand, and it wouldn't restrict deckbuilding options. Would it really make sense to play more than, say, two Survivals in your deck? Would it be better than Brainstorm or even GSZ? I have my doubts (though again, I hardly ever play fair decks outside of limited, so I am open to being wrong).

    Quote Originally Posted by Bithlord View Post
    Banning fetches *dramatically* reduces the value of land types on the non-basics, and instantly increases the number of viable alternatives for most decks.

    Edit: I should say, increases the design space of viable alternatives. Fastlands are the only ones that are really viable currently, if fetches were banned. Checklands could make a brief appearance.
    I think that is somewhat true, but even if they didn't have the land types, coming into play untapped and making two colors is still better than any other dual, which means that you would still max out true duals before anything else, even if fetches were banned. If OG duals didn't have basic land types, no one would play checklands in the hypothetical fetchless format, either.

    I think the diversity of manabases would increase somewhat, sure, but you would ultimately still need a critical number of duals to be competitive.

  17. #19457

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    but you would ultimately still need a critical number of duals to be competitive.
    Absolutely. It's not a solution (to the dual land issue) in and of itself. It opens doors, though. Type-less duals in a supplemental set could be a thing. it would also de-homogonize decklists somewhat, since you can no longer rely on 10+ of your lands being able to hit literally any color mana you need.

    But, realistically, banning fetches wouldn't be done to address OG dual scarcity. It would be done to address the cantrip shell / brainstorm dominance. the affect on dual land usage would be known, but ancillary.

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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    It would be interesting to actually have to build shuffle effects into your deck like play stone forge or more tutors or something. Maybe even evolving wilds. I'm unsure though because blood moon and wasteland get a pretty solid boost too. Though at the same time you then probably up the number of basics you run allowing you to more often naturally draw out of a moon lock
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  19. #19459
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    My issue with the original statement is that it implies discard is next to unplayable, despite us knowing how oppressive Probe/Therapy/Pyromancer was/is at times and also despite Duress/Hymn/Therapy being staples in countless decks.

    Sure, Brainstorm MIGHT be used to mitigate some damage (instead for fixing your draw/hand, like with the classic T2 BS into Fetch), but that does not affect the viability of discard at all. I have never heared any decent storm or Grixis player whinning, that their discard is trash and unplayable, because their opponent was hiding FoW on top. Discard IS absurdly powerful despite Brainstorm.
    The original statement is Thoughtseize would be relevant again in nonblue decks against blue combos, does it still knock your nerves

    Like ReAnimator and Megadeus have said, decks such as Jund and Junk being viable would diversify Legacy. Jund should have a good matchup against Grixis cantrips, even with Brainstorm. They don’t show up because of a zoo of combo decks, especially the good ones with Brainstorm.
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    So? They still show that there are alternative engines that don't directly attack the cantrip shell. Killing your opponent is a great way to stop them in Magic.

    I actually don't think Survival would be a big deal if it were unbanned, even with Deathrite Shaman still legal. What are they going to do that's more broken than what already happens in Legacy? OK, cool, you played a two mana enchantment that doesn't do anything until you put another mana into it, at which point it probably still doesn't do anything unless you have another mana? Then, even if you do your cool thing, what, now you've got some 4/4s or something? Griselbrand is legal, Tendrils of Agony is legal, Show and Tell is legal...plus, they can needle you, decay you, use their deathrite on your 4/4s, multiple copies of survival aren't really great, sometimes you draw a hand of a bunch of unplayable Rumbling Baloths and just die...I dunno, I'd be excited to be proven wrong, but I just don't see it.

    **Edit to respond to Finn who snuck in under me:



    As I have mentioned before, banning Fetches would be a huge deal, potentially making Legacy much more interesting/physically quicker and easier to play/etc, but no amount of additional SCG coverage support will make up for $1000+ duals, which is what banning fetches would create.

    If the reserved list didn't exist, it'd be an attractive option (outside of the ugliness and inelegance of banning ten cards), but the financial realities related to the fetches and duals makes it unfeasible.
    Here,
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    It's even simpler to state:

    Nonblue decks work if they are fast combo, or attack the cantrip shell (Chalice, Thalia). There is next to no room for building nonblue decks that do not attack the cantrip engine as a strategy and try to do their own thing instead, ie. use another consistency engine or just more pieces of interaction - enacting their own strategy. The strategy must necessarily include attacking the cantrips since the cantrip shell is far and away better than competing consistency engines.
    Both of these decks fit into the first category, giving up some speed for the ability to fire again and again or threatening to just turn dudes sideways for a few turns Like God Intended. Lands also plays some resistors out of the board.

    Not to say a Survival unban would be The End of everything we know and love, but didn't we spend the last year of so hearing how a sorcery-speed value spell that does literal nothing until you untap is OP and must be banned? I was pretty mellow on legalizing Survival but now I'm not sure.

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