View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #18201

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Doomsday is more of a logistical headache than Recruiter would be and would see about as much play.
    This is true. It isn't that good of a card. It'd play as a one or two of in Goblins. It won't break the format. Wizards is stubborn though. I'm not saying Goblin Recruiter shouldn't be unbanned, I'm saying it won't be unbanned.

  2. #18202
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Oh, what i surprise, what i said would happen actually happened!

    Banning top did nothing but just kill miracle while keeping the blue tempo shell intact.

    Banning brainstorm would have weakened miracles (significantly), DRS 4-c goodstuff decks (significantly but slightly less so), and Show and Tell based lists (significantly). Instead we banned top because ancestral recall is a fair card apparently and SURPRISE now we get another blue shell deck get to be like half the format (also hi painter). At least miracle had a significantly different play pattern from this dumpster fire.

  3. #18203
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Doomsday is more of a logistical headache than Recruiter would be and would see about as much play.
    False.

    Recruiter lets you stack your deck without the restriction of only choosing 5 cards and halving your life.

    Also, people really love their little green men. It would see plenty of play, whether it was good enough or not.

  4. #18204
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by 8bit9mm View Post
    False.

    Recruiter lets you stack your deck without the restriction of only choosing 5 cards and halving your life.

    Also, people really love their little green men. It would see plenty of play, whether it was good enough or not.
    I am suddenly under the impression you have never watched someone work out their Doomsday pile on the fly. There is nothing more time intensive that watching Stephen Menendian work out a DD pile.

    I mean people write limericks as he does so to pass the time.

    There is a big difference between number of cards and complexity of a choice. Recruiter gives you access to more cards but is in no way as difficult or impactful on a game as getting a DD right. The complexity and pressure of the situation means your forced to work all the angles and plan out ahead. That eats time.
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  5. #18205
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    "I have never played Goblins and especially not with Goblin Recruiter. Let me add my worthless .2c into the garbage fire"

    Riddle me this. If Recruiter is SUCH a catastrophically slow card to resolve to slow play, how come there is not a single forum post or article from the eras of Goblin Recruiter domination in Extended and 1.5 complaining about slow play from Goblins players?

    Goblins died because everything is more efficient than it, more powerful and less RNG based than the Goblin shell is. It's not any one individual card that made it unplayable though DRS is the biggest culprit by some margin.

    Then again, sometimes the deck gets lucky.
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  6. #18206
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gheizen64 View Post
    Oh, what i surprise, what i said would happen actually happened!

    Banning top did nothing but just kill miracle while keeping the blue tempo shell intact.

    Banning brainstorm would have weakened miracles (significantly), DRS 4-c goodstuff decks (significantly but slightly less so), and Show and Tell based lists (significantly). Instead we banned top because ancestral recall is a fair card apparently and SURPRISE now we get another blue shell deck get to be like half the format (also hi painter). At least miracle had a significantly different play pattern from this dumpster fire.
    Yeah, I feel your pain; I play Poops, too.

    I also play decks that use Brainstorm.
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  7. #18207

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gheizen64 View Post
    Banning top did nothing but just kill miracle while keeping the blue tempo shell intact.
    How so? Miracles is a tier-1 deck as far as I know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gheizen64 View Post
    SURPRISE now we get another blue shell deck get to be like half the format.
    WTF?

    According to paper data from MTGTop8, Grixis Delver is 11%, and Czech (a different deck, BTW), sits at 5%.

    If you want to lump in TA, 4colour Delver, and Grixis control, that ads another 6%. So even if we (disingenuously) lump in all these archetypes, we are nowhere near 50% of the meta. But who needs math or facts, right?


    If you think the good-stuff tempo and midranges decks are currently running too many of the same cards, maybe that's a fair complaint. But this notion of a monstrous blue-shelled deck that's taken over half of the meta-game is straight up foolish.
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  8. #18208

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Riddle me this. If Recruiter is SUCH a catastrophically slow card to resolve to slow play, how come there is not a single forum post or article from the eras of Goblin Recruiter domination in Extended and 1.5 complaining about slow play from Goblins players?
    Steve, forgive me if I'm mis-representing you here, but aren't you one of the people who hates enduring the five, maybe eight seconds it takes to resolve a ponder or a brainstorm? Why would you want to risk a goblin recruiter trigger that could take as many as forty seconds?

    All ribbing aside, I do agree with you that Recruiter is super unbannable, I don't think it would do anything to the format. Plus, that card has great art and excellent flavor text - I think it's a win all around.

  9. #18209
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    is there really much of a difference between casting goblin recruiter and casting glimpse of nature + 15 elves in terms of time?
    -rob

  10. #18210
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    So besides the Goblin fanboyz, what do we feel might actually get banned or unbanned? I think realistically there won't be any bans in Legacy in the foreseeable future. I do however think that there is a very real chance Earthcraft or Mind Twist actually get unbanned. Earthcraft because there are many ways to contain the combo, and there's just simply more powerful things to do in the format already. Mind Twist as a placating gesture to offset the one-sided nature of Leovold and True-Name Nemesis.
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  11. #18211

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    So besides the Goblin fanboyz, what do we feel might actually get banned or unbanned? I think realistically there won't be any bans in Legacy in the foreseeable future. I do however think that there is a very real chance Earthcraft or Mind Twist actually get unbanned. Earthcraft because there are many ways to contain the combo, and there's just simply more powerful things to do in the format already. Mind Twist as a placating gesture to offset the one-sided nature of Leovold and True-Name Nemesis.
    How is Mind Twist a placating gesture towards those two cards?? What deck that runs TNN/Leovold wouldn't ALSO consider running Mind Twist? (outside of merfolk I guess, but any DRS enabled nonsense is absolutely going to be doing it)

  12. #18212
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Maybe that's a reach, but Leovold generates one-sided card draw and eliminates opposing extra draws. A way to combat that would be to just strip their hand with Mind Twist. It would be an 'unfair' way to combat him, the way his unfair ability combats the format's propensity towards Brainstorm. Sure, some decks would play both Leovold and Mind Twist, it shares a color, but only decks that can scale it up quickly. I'm not convinced most decks would play it over/in addition to Hymn to Tourach. Some Leovold decks don't play a full set of Hymn to Tourach as it stands, why would they play 5+? It's an ability that scales up at a point in the game where it's less relevant. I'd be more scared of Mind Twist out of Elves' sideboard than a Leovold deck; they could ramp a massive amount of mana by turn 2-3 and just wipe out your hand. Same with Nic-Fit if they get a t1 explorer, your hand will be empty by turn 3. EDIT: I don't think this would be too good, I feel Twist is safe. Czech pile? I don't think they would play it.

    I'm not sold on 'any deck playing DRS' will play Mind Twist either. Again, the Hymn to tourach point comes into play. Decks that don't want Hymn probably won't want Twist. Decks that play some number of Hymn might want it, might not (diminishing returns in the late game.)Pox will want probably at least 2x Mind Twist, maybe even 3. It's one of their best cards, and they *don't* play DRS. I may be way off here, but I don't think 'every deck playing DRS' will automatically play Mind Twist. I guess greedy mana-bases will like the single black mana cost to be easier, but it's less efficient than Hymn. I think mana-bases can already handle Hymn fine.
    Last edited by Mr. Safety; 02-01-2018 at 01:35 PM.
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  13. #18213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
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  14. #18214
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    While I think Recruiter and Earthcraft are safer unbans, I think Mind Twist is the most likely to come off because it's both very iconic and can theoretically fit in more decks.

  15. #18215
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I don't understand why any of the 3 exist on the list at this point
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
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    Top quality german restraint there.

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  16. #18216

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    I don't understand why any of the 3 exist on the list at this point
    The format is called "Legacy" right?

  17. #18217
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I mean, I know how warped the meta got when land tax got unbanned, and how worldgorger dragon has been a total logistical nightmare for so many grand Prix's, and that since the black vise unban that prison and vise burn decks have just completely taken over the format. I guess I'm afraid squirrel combo is probably too good in legacy. And I know food chain goblins would be a powerhouse. Or Mind Twist elves whoa I mean mind Twist is so much better than Natural Order for Craterhoof
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  18. #18218
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Many extra points for sarcasm. Dat BlackViseStasis.dec is rekkin' the format. Thanks for posting the tweet as well, totally agree with it.
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  19. #18219

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    As has been discussed before, the reason those cards are still on the list has much more to do with the prisoner exchange approach than it does inherent brokenness - Wizards is saving them for their next few mistakes, so when they have to step in, they can get rid of something problematic while also saying "here's a new old toy we dusted off for you!"

  20. #18220

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    As has been discussed before, the reason those cards are still on the list has much more to do with the prisoner exchange approach than it does inherent brokenness - Wizards is saving them for their next few mistakes, so when they have to step in, they can get rid of something problematic while also saying "here's a new old toy we dusted off for you!"
    They didn't unban shit when top got the axe though.

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