View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #18361

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fjaulnir View Post
    Data set is small, but I think this is a trend we'll keep seeing anyway, hiding even more what decks/cards are dominant.
    I wouldn't even look at online data anymore.
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  2. #18362

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fjaulnir View Post
    FWIW, some of the more hated cards / cards that are being called out as potential bans, are now being under- and overrepresented in the way MTGO decklists are now being selected:


    https://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/c...ecklist_rules/

    Data set is small, but I think this is a trend we'll keep seeing anyway, hiding even more what decks/cards are dominant.
    Planeswalker (3)
    3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    Sorcery (14)
    2 Call of the Herd
    2 Council's Judgment
    1 Decree of Justice
    2 Gaea's Blessing
    4 Ponder
    3 Supreme Verdict

    Instant (19)
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Counterspell
    1 Cunning Wish
    2 Fact or Fiction
    4 Force of Will
    4 Swords to Plowshares

    Land (24)
    2 Field of Ruin
    3 Flooded Strand
    1 Forest
    4 Island
    6 Plains
    2 Tropical Island
    3 Tundra
    3 Windswept Heath

    Other (1)
    1 Aetherling
    61 Cards

    Sideboard (15)
    3 Cyclonic Rift
    3 Disenchant
    3 Flusterstorm
    2 Pulse of the Fields
    4 Spell Pierce

    What the fuck am I reading? This is incredible.

  3. #18363

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zllig View Post
    Planeswalker (3)
    3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    Sorcery (14)
    2 Call of the Herd
    2 Council's Judgment
    1 Decree of Justice
    2 Gaea's Blessing
    4 Ponder
    3 Supreme Verdict

    Instant (19)
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Counterspell
    1 Cunning Wish
    2 Fact or Fiction
    4 Force of Will
    4 Swords to Plowshares

    Land (24)
    2 Field of Ruin
    3 Flooded Strand
    1 Forest
    4 Island
    6 Plains
    2 Tropical Island
    3 Tundra
    3 Windswept Heath

    Other (1)
    1 Aetherling
    61 Cards

    Sideboard (15)
    3 Cyclonic Rift
    3 Disenchant
    3 Flusterstorm
    2 Pulse of the Fields
    4 Spell Pierce

    What the fuck am I reading? This is incredible.
    Including the fetches, that entire list on MTGO is like what, 50 tix? (well, 50 tix plus whatever the hell Jace is going for now that he's unbanned)

  4. #18364

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    So, pure exercise because it will never happen, but this random thought crossed my mind this morning, and I was surprised it didn't seem as stupid as it felt it should. What if fetchlands were banned ?

    Pros :
    - Brainstorm is now a fair card at best
    - DRS is far less reliable as a mana source
    - The power of having access to 3 or more colors of magic will now actually come with a real cost.

    Cons :
    - ?

    I ended up thinking this looked like something I could enjoy and support.
    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    140x Relentless Rats
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Bleiweiss
    I wish that Wizards would have just gone ahead and done away with the Reserved List entirely. It is nothing but a blight on the game and one that long outlived its purpose. [...] I am wholeheartedly in favor of getting rid of the Reserved List and reprinting higher-dollar staple cards from EDH and Legacy. Pete Hoefling the owner of StarCityGames.com agrees with my point of view as well.
    - Ben Bleiweiss, SCG General Manager, Feb 2010

  5. #18365

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ParkerLewis View Post
    Cons :
    - ?
    The majority of the archetypes take such a hit as to likely become unplayable. Even many 2-colour drcks would either become unreliable or overly exposed to non-basic hosers (Wasteland becomes oppressive, as we can no longer fetch basics to dodge it). Meanwhile decks that can run without fetches (D&T, Eldrazi, Elves, Burn, Steel Stompy, etc) stay at the same power level (Elves takes a very small hit).

    Maybe the format would be okay when the dust settled (there would be a lot of adjusting). But nuking ~70% of the meta while leaving the rest unscathed would be a catastrophic shake-up with a high risk of crushing diversity. Also the community would suffer. I think many players would outright leave when their deck gets destroyed like this.

    Right now Legacy is as diverse as it has ever been (save, perhaps the wild-west days when the format was less developed). You might not like BS, DRS, or 3+ coloured decks; but that hardly warrants banning ten cards and gutting the mana-base options.

    Edit:

    I suspect my beloved Lands deck could survive this ban (which is, of course, the most important thing).
    I would need to ramp up on Duals and Bicycle lands. I might need to add an extra Forest or Sylvan Scrying (and Crop Rotation would be an all-star). I might have to proactively use my tutors for a Forest - especially vs Moon decks.

    The big challenge would be finding prey. Greedy mana bases might be more rare (with the exception of Sol Land bases).

    The format possibly would be still very healthy - and it would be fascinating to see it adapt. But I think it would be hugely risky and simultaneously not at all justified (unless we thing shake-up bans and a "hands-on" policy are good things).
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  6. #18366

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    It would be a huge shake-up, that's for sure. But I'm not traumatized by the idea. And yes, I'm a bit tired of the ubiquity of Brainstorm & DRS. Nuking the fetches felt like an interesting way to make both these cards a lot less no-brainers, and when I thought about the other consequences (making manabases a lot more sane), it just felt even more right.

    Basically, there's a point where too good colorfixing is detrimental to the game (the color pie exists for a reason). The question is then only whether or not that is the case for a given available cardpool. It so happens that I do think that fetches+ABUR duals make it go over the edge, and I'd rather ban the fetches than the duals for numerous reasons (Brainstorm & DRS notably, but also because, and yes this is subjective, Force of Will and ABUR duals are to me the only cards that you just can't remove from Legacy without it not being able to be called Legacy anymore).

    Note and keep in mind I was and am saying all of this quite casually (ie I'm not willing to enter a huge ten-page long debate with arguments of hundreds of line). But I'm interested if someone sees an obvious huge problem with the idea (a shake-up itself is a given but once again I don't consider it a problem. A shake-up os just that, a shake-up, and one year later it's not a subject anymore).
    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    140x Relentless Rats
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Bleiweiss
    I wish that Wizards would have just gone ahead and done away with the Reserved List entirely. It is nothing but a blight on the game and one that long outlived its purpose. [...] I am wholeheartedly in favor of getting rid of the Reserved List and reprinting higher-dollar staple cards from EDH and Legacy. Pete Hoefling the owner of StarCityGames.com agrees with my point of view as well.
    - Ben Bleiweiss, SCG General Manager, Feb 2010

  7. #18367
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The format becomes unplayable simply from a price standpoint. Duals are already four hundred dollars each. Just think of what happens when you have to play 4 of each because you don't have fetches. The format would get priced out even more than it is now
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
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    Top quality german restraint there.

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  8. #18368

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    The format becomes unplayable simply from a price standpoint. Duals are already four hundred dollars each. Just think of what happens when you have to play 4 of each because you don't have fetches. The format would get priced out even more than it is now
    I thought about that, but :
    - monocolor decks are unaffected
    - two color decks are unaffected (they already play 4 duals), they'd just play shocklands and/or painlands instead of fetches
    - 5 color decks (whatever they are) are hugely affected but (at least that's the consequence I would foresee) in a simple playability way, as in they just simply can't use duals anymore. So for me there is no price issue.
    - 4 color decks are basically the same. You can play 24 duals if you want, the reliability of your manabase is still going to suck (in addition to being extremely sensitive to any form of hate). They'd have to rely on things like City of Brass which, in comparison, are free. Like 5c decks, they'd just adapt (and it couldn't be by saturating on duals) and/or disappear making the price issue moot.
    - 3 color decks is where it's the most interesting, because yes, they would probably be able to take on the challenge by going the full 12 (instead of what, nine today ?) - while still end up with a shakier manabase than previously.

    All in all, no, I don't think the format becomes "unplayable from a price standpoint". I think 4c and 5c decks disappear and/or use cheap rainbow lands, 3c decks do indeed cost *slightly* more, and 2 and 1 color decks are unaffected (once again from a price standpoint).
    Quote Originally Posted by cdr View Post
    140x Relentless Rats
    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Bleiweiss
    I wish that Wizards would have just gone ahead and done away with the Reserved List entirely. It is nothing but a blight on the game and one that long outlived its purpose. [...] I am wholeheartedly in favor of getting rid of the Reserved List and reprinting higher-dollar staple cards from EDH and Legacy. Pete Hoefling the owner of StarCityGames.com agrees with my point of view as well.
    - Ben Bleiweiss, SCG General Manager, Feb 2010

  9. #18369
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Blood Moon would be utter misery without fetches.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  10. #18370

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ParkerLewis View Post
    Note and keep in mind I was and am saying all of this quite casually...
    Absolutely!

    Quote Originally Posted by ParkerLewis View Post
    Basically, there's a point where too good colorfixing is detrimental to the game (the color pie exists for a reason). The question is then only whether or not that is the case for a given available cardpool.
    When I look at the top decks I see:

    Mono-colour
    • Eldrazi
    • D&T
    Mono-colour with a splash
    • Elves
    2-colour
    • Turbo Depths
    • Sneak Show
    • Prowess
    • Miracles
    • Lands
    2-colour with a splash
    • ANT
    • RUG Lands
    • Red Miracles
    3-Colour with a splash
    • Grixis Delver
    4-colour
    • Czech

    Points to note:
    • Very few decks are going above 3-colours.
    • Most decks are below 3-colours.
    • 5-colour decks are nonexistent.
    • Mono colour decks are alive and well.
    • 3+ colour decks are easily hosed by Legacy's flagship denial deck.

    So I tend to think colour fixing is good but not out of hand. I realise this is entirely subjective - different people have higher and lower tolerance for the density of 3+ colour decks.
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  11. #18371
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I think most of us that don't like greedy 3 color+ decks are fine with it as long as it has actual down sides. The problem is Deathrite has made it so there is very minimal downsides to it and it is incredibly hard for it to be punished in any way that matters
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  12. #18372

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitefaces View Post
    Blood Moon would be utter misery without fetches.
    It makes Blood Moon more powerful, but also makes it way harder to actually run it in a deck.

  13. #18373

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    It makes Blood Moon more powerful, but also makes it way harder to actually run it in a deck.
    Yeah how is ono-R stompy (the premier Moon deck) going to support it without duals?

    Banning fetches is just such an absurdly stupid Idea. Thanks for crimehead to taking the time and pointing out why.

    Also I am agreeing that I don't see a problem with legacys mana fixing. I mean playing a deck like chezch pile is defenitly not free regarding the mana base because you will lose countless games to 2 wastelands, moon, etc. It's just that the benefit is better in the current meta but it is still a trade of.

    The one thing that is kind of useless is playing a 2 color fair deck, because the splash of the 3rd color is basically free.

  14. #18374
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    If you ask me, they could ban fetches and neuter all the cantrip, DRS & 3-4 color deck nonsense and can unban all the cards like SDT, Dig Through Time, Treasure Cruise & Co who all just had their powerlevel BECAUSE of fetches.

    Pricetag of Legacy & Bloodmoon seem like strawmen given that Legacy is already ridiculously priced to the point that barely new players enter the format and Bloodmoon can't even get a hold on the most greedy decks atm, so i doubt it will be a threat to hypothetical 2 color decks in a post-ban world
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  15. #18375
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Duals are already four hundred dollars each.
    Seeing what duals actually sold for is easy. In the last few months on ebay, HP Plateau sold for $40, HP U-Sea sold for $150 and HP Bayou sold for $90.
    My 2 fulminator mages cost me $60 for modern and they were just for SB. Modern players are already spending ^this^ amount...

    If anything could make brainstorm a "fair" card blue duals would drop in price.

  16. #18376
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    If the fetchlands are gone I expect more people will play City of Brass/Mana confluence and traverse the ulvenwald will become a card in green decks.

    The price of duals is increasing because they are perfect for fetching. If painlands will have a forest/mountain tag they will see play as a budget replacement. Some people in my area cannot afford Duals and they still have "some" success with shocklands.

    Below you can see one of the best decks in the Type 1 without the fetchlands.
    People were playing magic back in the days and it was not that bad. I enjoyed it more than today where i have to constantly shuffle and face an army of TNN. I dont say I want Mana Drain in the format. This is just a presentation.


    "Keeper"
    5 Moxen
    1 Black Lotus
    1 Sol Ring
    1 Strip Mine
    3 Wasteland
    1 Library of Alexandria
    4 City of Brass
    1 Undiscovered Paradise
    3 Tundra
    4 Volcanic Island
    4 Underground Sea

    4 Mana Drain
    4 Force of Will
    1 Misdirection
    1 Ancestral Recall
    1 Stroke of Genius
    1 Braingeyser
    1 Fact or Fiction
    1 Mystical Tutor
    1 Merchant Scroll
    1 Time Walk
    2 Morphling

    1 The Abyss
    1 Mind Twist
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Diabolic Edict
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor

    1 Balance
    1 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Dismantling Blow

    1 Gorilla Shaman
    1 Fire/Ice

    1 Regrowth
    1 Sylvan Library

    1 Zuran Orb

    Sideboard:
    4 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Powder Keg
    2 Circle of Protection: Red
    1 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Aura Fracture

  17. #18377

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I`m happy I love playing Dredge. No fetching, no shuffling, no expensive Duals.

    What I see and hear around me is that a lot of people want to get into Legacy but the price is holding them off, especially the price of Duals.
    When is Wizards going to adress the Reserve List and do something about it? Probably never and that would be a shame specially now when they are giving Legacy more spotlight the coming year.
    I just started playing Legacy about 4 months ago and I`m loving it. I came over from Modern Dredge so that is why I went for LED Dredge because I just love the mechanic.

  18. #18378
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Me and my wife have a small company and we know from running it a couple of years if the costumer is happy->you are happy->they will attract more customers-> more money ->etc.

    Fetchlands are powerful because for 1Life you can fetch any colour which is a small cost. Compare it to City of Brass 1life for every use, Rishadan port kills you in 20 turns and it doesn’t filter your library.

    At the end we all want a diverse fun format with new people playing it every year.

    They should have a simple conversation in WotC.
    A: We need more people to play legacy to sell more products and make more money.
    B: We cannot bring more people to this format, because the price of cards X/Y/Z is too high.
    A: Reprint those cards to oblivion so they buy our product and play the fucking game.
    B: We cannot do that Sir, because X/Y/Z are on the reserve list.
    A: Remove the reserve list.
    B: Impossible Sir.
    A: Fuck, do we have a substitute for those cards?
    B: Yes Sir, we produced a huge amount of them, they are called X1/Y1/Z1 etc….
    A: Good, lets ban X/Y/Z.
    B: Impossible sir, X/Y/Z are the driving force of the format. If we ban them we will have a similar format to Modern.
    A: Shit, we have to be clever. How we can reduce the amount of X/Y/Z in a deck?
    B: We have to ban 20 to 30 cards, Sir.
    A: Will it work?
    B: Not enough data sir.
    A: Fuck it, take 10 people from the basement, the clever one and produce a forecast how this will affect the format. And remember keep the format diverse we don’t want a second 2 deck format like vintage and standard. If the deck will be competitive without X/Y/Z, ban those 20/30 cards and reprint X1/Y1/Z1 to oblivion, but only once a year, lets dry them slowly. They will buy all that crap and be happy to leave us their cash. Let them know we try to do something good for them. After we will sell all our stuff and the dust will settles we will ban/unban more to adjust the meta.
    B: But sir, what about the collectors, those who have X/Y/Z and those pussies who will moan about bans.
    A: I don’t give a shit about them. They have already spent their money on this piece of coloured paper. I want new people, youngsters, fresh meat who will spend their savings/pocket money.
    B: That is brilliant sir.
    A: That is why I am the boss.
    B: Exactly Sir.
    A: Go and do your job, I want results.
    B: Yes Sir!

    Replace X/Y/Z with any card you want. If they cannot make money, because no one will buy reprints (iconic masters), they will reprint the reserve list. This is just a question of time, especially now when you can buy their product in the supermarket.

  19. #18379

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    If you ask me, they could ban fetches and neuter all the cantrip, DRS & 3-4 color deck nonsense and can unban all the cards like SDT, Dig Through Time, Treasure Cruise & Co who all just had their powerlevel BECAUSE of fetches.

    Pricetag of Legacy & Bloodmoon seem like strawmen given that Legacy is already ridiculously priced to the point that barely new players enter the format and Bloodmoon can't even get a hold on the most greedy decks atm, so i doubt it will be a threat to hypothetical 2 color decks in a post-ban world
    To accomplish what exactly other than following the idea f some random internet dude whose investment into the format ia close to 0 because he actually doesn't even really play the format, right? It is basically creating a new format and nobody can say if for better or worse. You can actually do that without fucking up legacy, just call it xy format and see, who wants to play that.

    Also if you would think further than your nose you would recognize that the price argument is super valid, because not only are new players priced out further but actually people with a decent legacy pools have to restock in duals because all of a sudden you need 12 duals for your 3 color deck (see keeper list).

    What exactly would "grabbing a hold" mean for moon.decks btw? You seem to have a weird definition for that.

  20. #18380
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    Also if you would think further than your nose you would recognize that the price argument is super valid, because not only are new players priced out further but actually people with a decent legacy pools have to restock in duals because all of a sudden you need 12 duals for your 3 color deck (see keeper list).
    The price argument is pure speculation based on the assumption that every deck will run three colors and 7+ duals in a post-fetch world while not getting fucked over by Wasteland/Bloodmoon/GhostQuarter/etc in the process.

    I however think that wasteland & Co would punish decks with that many duals to the point that 3+ color decks would become near unplayable, rather than the norm you assume here.
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