View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #21321
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blastoderm View Post
    Ban Vial lol. I can't tell if you're serious or not.
    Quite serious; because again: there's exactly one creature deck that will kill you before you can ever get to the 6 mana you need to cast a 4 mana wrath [DnT]. The only card in the format that lets you sink all your mana into Ports and land drops into Wasteland while dumping 2/1 Thorns into play for free is Vial. So that's exactly one [non-blue] dude deck that becomes wrath-proof....which means massive diversity loss in legacy's [not-blue] dude deck area, as they all go to DnT.

    The point is not Vial needs to be banned, it's just that it would also have to be if Terminus got banned. The one and only correct thing to remove from miracles is Counterbalance, with an unbanning of SDT (because Terminus isn't a problem card, and unless you're DnT, you're still losing to Verdict backed up by SCM/Plow).

  2. #21322

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    SDT will never see the light of day again, ever. At this point, it's effectively Shahrazad on a stick.

  3. #21323
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blastoderm View Post
    Ban Vial lol. I can't tell if you're serious or not.
    Remember that time Wizards banned Wild Nacatl? "But it closes design space for Kird Apes"

  4. #21324
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Quite serious; because again: there's exactly one creature deck that will kill you before you can ever get to the 6 mana you need to cast a 4 mana wrath [DnT]. The only card in the format that lets you sink all your mana into Ports and land drops into Wasteland while dumping 2/1 Thorns into play for free is Vial. So that's exactly one [non-blue] dude deck that becomes wrath-proof....which means massive diversity loss in legacy's [not-blue] dude deck area, as they all go to DnT.
    Exactly one? Try Goblins or Merfolk. (although that still backs up your point that Vial allows creature decks to spend lands on Port/Waste to slow down answers or manlands to dodge removal).

    Then again, Goblins and Merfolk already stomp Miracles. Even with Terminus. Even when they had Top. Clearly being wrath-proof or not isn't the deciding factor, so there would be no loss of diversity. The fact that they aren't a bigger part of the metagame isn't Terminus. It's combo. D&T packs more hatebears to beat combo.

  5. #21325
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    You are listing off mono Cavern/Vial decks. I would consider Merfolk to be the worst possible choice in that group, given an uptick in Cavern/Vial. You can play Gobbos though, it's the just the red version of same thing Cavern/Vial/Port/Thalia. The point I am making is any not blue fair dude deck without the DnT core would become totally unplayable.

  6. #21326
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    (premise 1)
    Well, and I don't see why this would still make D&T better than Maverick. Maverick, historically, rolls D&T since it has main-decked artifact-hate; meaning it gets to use its equips and D&T often doesn't while packing better CA packages. Mom even gives a main'd 1-drop out to Mirran Crusader or fast-skull. It also is fine against Verdict which effectively costs 5 (by your metric) and it gives them 4+ turns to find Teeg + Mom; making the lock that much more reliable against UW control.

    In the supposed meta where UW control is gone but D&T takes over; decks like DGA, Maverick, Elves, and Eldrazi all munch D&T just fine; and many other decks have even MUs. Some of those decks have far better G1 combo-games (Eldrazi v Storm for instance.)

    (premise 2)
    I still don't get why Kozilek's Return isn't fine in UWr (in the hypothetical banned terminus world.) It blows D&T out of the water; it's fine against Elves and many other creature decks. UWr will have to run a counter to TNN like everyone else, but Mentor honestly fills that slot fine (go wide; race easily) and some back main'd CJudgements anyway

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    The point I am making is any not blue fair dude deck without the DnT core would become totally unplayable.
    You say that; but WHY? You point to vial as a huge deal; but I'm not convinced. D&T did so well in the Miracles meta because it was *Miracles* who eats the other fair decks. Vial + karakas gave D&T a fighting chance by having psuedo-haste and more durable threats but those don't often count as much against being monster-trukked by Eldrazi and Elves; and if D&T got serious meta share; there's no reason decks that are fine against D&T and the field wouldn't do well too; of which I just listed four.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

  7. #21327
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    You are listing off mono Cavern/Vial decks. I would consider Merfolk to be the worst possible choice in that group, given an uptick in Cavern/Vial. You can play Gobbos though, it's the just the red version of same thing Cavern/Vial/Port/Thalia. The point I am making is any not blue fair dude deck without the DnT core would become totally unplayable.
    You missed the point. Banning Terminus wouldn't make any non-DnT non-blue deck unplayable, because board wipes aren't what's keeping fair creature decks out of legacy.

    See: DnT is already much better positioned than Goblins, even though Goblins is 80/20 vs Miracles WITH Terminus. Goblins doesn't rely on Port/Thalia making board wipes cost 6 to beat control. It buries them in too many threats to answer.

    Fair creature decks are weak because of unfair decks, not because of Terminus or Supreme Verdict. The dominant non-blue aggro deck is Eldrazi Stompy, because they have built-in hate for unfair decks.

  8. #21328
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by tescrin View Post
    (premise 2)
    I still don't get why Kozilek's Return isn't fine in UWr (in the hypothetical banned terminus world.)
    Also
    Volcanic Fallout (uncounterable)
    Cry of the Carnarium (stops recursion, kills TNN)
    Engineered Explosives
    Propaganda (pitches to FoW lol)
    Firespout (can be strategically cast to not kill Delver or Clique)
    Energy Field+Rest in Peace combo

    Do people forget how control decks played Magic before Terminus was printed? UW control was always part of the metagame since the birth of Legacy (edit: Magic)

  9. #21329
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    @tescrin Vial allows the creature deck to sink all mana into Port and all land drops into Wasteland. Then Vial puts in Thalia and the UW/UWx wrath cost 6 in a main phase. If your deck is trying to play not blue you can't really do anything else because board wipes still hit you.

    Edit: I am talking about Fetchland creature feature decks compared to Cavern Vial. Tomb/Chalice is it's own thing and isn't going to change much with or without Terminus.
    Last edited by Fox; 02-21-2019 at 11:42 AM.

  10. #21330
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Man, I wish this theoretical meta comes to be so I can just slam 4 Suppression Field in everything.

  11. #21331
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Edit: I am talking about Fetchland creature feature decks compared to Cavern Vial. Tomb/Chalice is it's own thing and isn't going to change much with or without Terminus.
    In your view, why are "creature feature" decks bad compared to Cavern Vial Port? Why will they be irrelevant and do much worse?

    Seems like your reason is this: they would die to board wipes, but D&T won't die to board wipes because they can make Supreme Verdict cost 6 mana and win first, so D&T is better than any other creature strategy.

    That presumes board wipes are what hold back the success of random creature decks: they're bad now because of Terminus, and with Terminus banned they would still lose to Wraths but D&T wouldn't. That's not true. Board wipes aren't what's keeping creature strategies down in Legacy. There's a ton of design space in Magic to build creature decks that don't lose to 6 x Wrath of God.dec, as you will see in casual kitchen table metagames.

    Why don't random creature decks do better? It's not the cost of board wipes. It's unfair combo. Aggro scoops to ANT, BR Reanimator, SneakShow, Turbo Depths, OmniTell, High Tide, Belcher, etc. Those are the worst matches. That means that the only viable creature decks are ones with disruption: mana denial, hatebears or Chalice stompy. Those outshine other creature decks because they actually have game against combo, not because of UW control.

    If all Wraths were errataed to cost 6 against ALL decks (including D&T or any other creature deck), random creature decks would still be worse than D&T. The cost of Wraths has nothing to do with it. It's that D&T has better game against combo. Combo is the oppressor of creature strategies.

  12. #21332
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    @tescrin Vial allows the creature deck to sink all mana into Port and all land drops into Wasteland. Then Vial puts in Thalia and the UW/UWx wrath cost 6 in a main phase. If your deck is trying to play not blue you can't really do anything else because board wipes still hit you.

    Edit: I am talking about Fetchland creature feature decks compared to Cavern Vial
    First, KReturn is the likely next sweeper because it's instant; making it cost 4 at most with Thalia on the field.
    Second, Mav locks out Verdict with Safekeeper or Mom next to Teeg. Miracles literally can't beat that without double-plow (and even then *can't* beat safekeeper.) Mav plays an effective 5 copies of Teeg and safekeeper and 3 of Mom; that's a huge chance to block Verdict. It's not a block to KReturn, but then you still have to deal with KotRs and sometimes (5/5 legend angel thing or similar)

    Additionally, the biggest problem with Terminus has-always-been that it tucks instead of destroys. Destroys is easily countered via graveyard recursion (oath of ghouls for example has been popular of late) or at least things that care about the graveyard (Hallowed Spiritkeeper being one that sees mild play in D&T.) There are dozens of cards that can say "meh" if you destroy; and many of them are playable. Voice of reason, for example, is much much better if terminus is instead a non-tuck/exile spell.

    ______
    It's true that Vial is a good chunk of the reason D&T sees play against Miracles, because you need psuedo-hasted threats to deal with Jace and Terminus; which is Mav's biggest issue. That said, Mav ran roughshod over the format between early Innistrad(GSZ + thalia) and Terminus (late innistrad.) I really don't think the other good creatures D&T has had printed are the difference between Mav eating its lunch if Terminus were gone and not; especially without DRS to police KotR anymore.

    That's not to say that Mav wouldn't still get nuked from orbit by TES and such; but that's life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestalim View Post
    Wrong. Gideon Emblem protect you from losing and you can even open your binder and slam some cards on the board, not even the HJ can DQ you now.

  13. #21333
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Fox and FTW talk sense.

    Terminus didn't drive out spell-less aggro decks; faster stuff that doesn't care about 2/1s did. And Counterbalance always was—and continues to be—the problem with Miracles.

    Anyway, I thought Huang's article was pretty solid. Someone else is finally acknowledging how dangerous Chalice is.
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  14. #21334
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    Anyway, I thought Huang's article was pretty solid. Someone else is finally acknowledging how dangerous Chalice is.
    I agree that it's a good text. I didn't get the impression that he was arguing against Chalice like you seem to be doing now, or that it was somehow a problem for the format [edit: maybe I misunderstand you]. I rather got the opposite impression. I re-read the text to see if I misinterpreted something. I think he rather states how it's having a positive effect, although that may also be me interpreting it as I wish. I think the final words clearly show what he thinks on this matter though:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Huang
    All in all, Legacy is in the most diverse place it has been since the printing of Delver of Secrets, and possibly ever. I expect we will look back on this time as an exciting era of Legacy where you can really play anything. Just be ready to interact as early as possible if you wish to continue slinging the best card in Legacy.
    From https://www.channelfireball.com/arti...ng-brainstorm/

  15. #21335

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    I agree that it's a good text. I didn't get the impression that he was arguing against Chalice like you seem to be doing now, or that it was somehow a problem for the format [edit: maybe I misunderstand you]. I rather got the opposite impression. I re-read the text to see if I misinterpreted something. I think he rather states how it's having a positive effect, although that may also be me interpreting it as I wish. I think the final words clearly show what he thinks on this matter though:



    From https://www.channelfireball.com/arti...ng-brainstorm/
    I dont think that chalice provides interesting gameplay, however it kind of forces interesting deck building decision.
    I think Bob is right that Xerox players should acknowledge how good that card is and devote more cards to beating it. Like, Xerox can beat a lot of things by cantripping into answers - but not chalice! I think if you want to play delver and do well you should have 4+ answers to chalice, perferably some of which have other applications of course.

  16. #21336
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    In your view, why are "creature feature" decks bad compared to Cavern Vial Port? Why will they be irrelevant and do much worse?

    Seems like your reason is this: they would die to board wipes, but D&T won't die to board wipes because they can make Supreme Verdict cost 6 mana and win first, so D&T is better than any other creature strategy.
    Right now Cavern/Vial can get wrath’d too thanks to Terminus. Were Terminus banned you would have 2 options: play dude deck that can be wrath’d or play dude deck that can’t be wrath’d. One of those new choices is unambiguously better than the other.

    Boosting up Cavern/Vial with a Terminus ban would be incredibly anti-diverse due to the design constrictions of insert Tribe A or B, whereas Fetchland-based creature feature decks can actually play differently within their genre. The only way to restore that diversity would be to ban Vial so you’d have to have a manabase that can actually support what you’re trying to do.

    I’m not arguing the finer points of the challenges faced by Fetchland-based creature feature decks, just pointing out that their continued viability (as well as that of straight-UW) are tied directly to either: Terminus being legal or Terminus & Vial both being banned.

  17. #21337
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    I agree that it's a good text. I didn't get the impression that he was arguing against Chalice like you seem to be doing now, or that it was somehow a problem for the format [edit: maybe I misunderstand you]. I rather got the opposite impression.
    I was being somewhat intentionally ambiguous. I do think Chalice is on the precipice of being dangerous for the format (seriously, what non-Chalice decks don't rely on 1-drops?), but I think it's impossible to argue that it's anywhere outside the top 3–5 most powerful (nonland?) cards in the format regardless of whether it's banworthy.

    EDIT: And Brainstorm still isn't the best card in Legacy. But I can forgive Bob for saying that.
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  18. #21338

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce View Post
    EDIT: And Brainstorm still isn't the best card in Legacy. But I can forgive Bob for saying that.
    ... So what is?
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  19. #21339
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Right now Cavern/Vial can get wrath’d too thanks to Terminus. Were Terminus banned you would have 2 options: play dude deck that can be wrath’d or play dude deck that can’t be wrath’d. One of those new choices is unambiguously better than the other.
    You didn't address his point. D&T gets Wrathed by KReturn but other decks don't.

    The fact is is that Maverick, DGA, Zombardment, and other decks all can handle regular wraths.
    - Mav via Teeg and protection (this isn't seen often today because Terminus occurs too early and the mana dorks mean you tend to get x-for-1'd more often)
    - DGA via recursion and discard (which terminus and its tuck effect ignore)
    - Zombardment because the deck wouldn't actually lose anything; where-as today you lose everything

    This goes for combos that Miracles can do well against too:
    - T1 Empty the Warrens requires a much earlier response than 4 mana; sometimes earlier than 3 mana
    - Reanimated dudes who Die rather than get Tucked are much easier to combo with a second time
    - Emrakul wins before you can 4-mana wrath it in most cases
    - Elves win before you 4-mana wrath in many cases; or Teeg you out

    D&T may survive the Tuck effect better because their decks have less air in them or similar; but all of the above decks have massive advantages to them over playing D&T in a Terminus-free environment. Zombo is good against combo while being usable against Fair. DGA has better Storm/Elves games. Mav has better fair games.

    ________
    It's such crap that you don't address what I say, then repeat the same $*(&$(* thing.
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  20. #21340
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    @tescrin this point was hit a few pages back. Yes there are cards that can hose DnT to the point that no matter how good the DnT pilot is, they will consistently lose if you choose to beat them (Dread of Night, Sulfur Elemental etc...). These cards that beat DnT do not exist in strict-UW however.

    The issue with most of these cards we can list off to hold down DnT [were Terminus is gone] generally lose to say TNN. You can’t really get ahead in legacy by playing interaction that is too narrow to dependably work.

    I’m not saying Terminus isn’t hearthstone’y RNG bullcrap, b/c it is. We can name off all kinds of scenarios where zero-skill Terminus topdecking (or Bstorm setups) bails people out, but at the end of the day most creature feature decks are losing to Tundra b/c of Plow + Snapcaster recursion. The wrath effect shuts the door afterwards; and unless your deck is Cavern/Vial, it doesn’t really matter if that wrath is called Supreme Verdict or Terminus.

    If you abandon the stack as a zone of interaction and choose to play into white cards, you’re always going to be bad against white cards - and white cards are going to keep power creeping. If you want miracles to stop playing Terminus you ban Counterbalance so that they’re forced to abandon such heavy white card pre-boarding degeneracy and have blue cards in hand to stop combo, instead of an infinite value engine that costs UU.

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