View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #19501
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MechTactical View Post
    Exactly, and if that is true why didn’t they already print a functional replacement? Something like: activate look only once per turn and/or only during your opponents eot or some shit?
    You mean like say;

    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.
    Quote Originally Posted by Von View Post
    Is this a troll or are gobbos really dtb?

  2. #19502

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    You mean like say;

    It’s a wonder they didn’t change the oracle on that one to read: mirri is blue. You may spend only U mana to cast it. Nah i mean a colorless artifact!! and with tap to draw. You probably work at wizards and therefore fully comprehend the impact sdt ban had on nonmiracles legacy decks. And advise simply to replace it with mirri’s guile; “it’s the same thing guys! We don’t understand why you are complaining?”

  3. #19503

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    It's no top but mirri is certainly underplayed

  4. #19504

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by JackaBo View Post
    It's no top but mirri is certainly underplayed
    I'd agree with you if I haven't tested the card to a great extent after SDT ban (even bought a playset on the day of the announcement or better put the day they destroyed legacy). It simply doesn't do enough compared with top and is often a dead card, whereas top was good even in multiples (draw – shuffle it away). Cons:
    Is colored (top was great as a mana fixer),
    can't draw a card/protect itself (for example no floating a stifle/fluster on top and drawing it when they resolve their tendrils or whatnot),
    doesn't provide immediate effect when resolved (crucial in late game),
    can't "draw, repeal, look," (was one of the most exciting plays in legacy)
    can't be fetched with trinket mage,
    ...
    Pros: none.
    Speaking for post of course. So no mirri is far from being a top replacement. I’d rather play ponder. So I'll ask again: if the supposed reason for the banning was time considerations, why didn't they print a functional replacement or better yet change the Oracle rulings to restrict the look ability to once per turn or some shit??

  5. #19505
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Because a "fixed" top is always going to be shit, because if it's "fixed" then it's not going to be the same as it was before and you want what you had before. That was the point of posting mirri's guile. I was hoping we could be subtle but no, here I am having to explain it to you like a 2 year old. You cannot reasonably fix SDT by adding on the clause of "activate this only once per turn." It would be functionally and logistically the exact same card as SDT in the hands of good Miracles players and it would be even slower for bad miracles players because they would agonise over that solitary spin like their life depended on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.
    Quote Originally Posted by Von View Post
    Is this a troll or are gobbos really dtb?

  6. #19506
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    I get that this is hyperbole to make a point and it's coming from a position of personal taste in the texture of Magic games, but there are rules in Magic for Slow Play and Stalling, and you can always call a judge if you think your opponent is doing either.

    If your opponent is playing at a reasonable pace and taking legitimate game actions (and spinning top is one of them), and you can't kill them in game two in forty minutes, that's on you. That strategy is also risky for the Miracles player, because if you do happen to turn the corner sometime in game two, they have to hustle or they're going to get a draw.

    You might not like it when people play cantrips or spin top, but I think it's a thousand times more miserable when somebody just goes, "ancient tomb, chalice on one" and then kills you with whatever goofy-ass spaghetti digimon costs 2C with zero relevant play decisions. Fortunately, each of our personal tastes don't dictate the ban list (though, unfortunately, someone's did with respect to SDT), and people still get to play what they personally like, and occasionally have to play against something they don't.
    As much as I agree with the sentiment of "Not being able to resolve spells sucks", CounterTop is a functionally superior Chalice that lets you change the number of counters on it at instant speed for one mana, while still countering the spell, PLUS giving you access to undercosted Miracle triggers thru library manipulation. Compound all that BS with the time demands on players that aren't as skilled with resolving Top activations quickly and it should be obvious why Top was the correct ban.

    Chalice can't do that because it only triggers at one specific mana cost, while ignoring the top of your library. Don't want to auto-lose to Chalice@1? Run less one drops.

    Disclaimer: I don't run Chalice. It's not hard to find out I'm currently playing D&T in Legacy, and most of my Magic time is spent on EDH.

  7. #19507

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Because a "fixed" top is always going to be shit, because if it's "fixed" then it's not going to be the same as it was before and you want what you had before.
    Bro, I don’t know what you want to say but i would give my candelabra for half a top right now. Regarding slow play i’ll say what I said before; slow players will always slow play, pondering over if they should bolt you t1 and chain you t2 or vice versa.

  8. #19508
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Top is a poorly designed magic card whose origins begin in Ice Age with Elemental Augury. For some reason R&D thought they should reduce both halves of the cost by a factor of three; changing just one of the costs to would have made SDT a more reasonable card. It's a poorly designed card, just like many others. Poorly designed as it is, Counterbalance is the problem card that should be banned.

    Que up the "SDT/CB was in legacy for years without being a problem, until Terminus..." and all you need to do is point to Bazaar of Baghdad to highlight how a ban should actually take place by targeting the problem rather than playing whack-a-mole with every card or mechanic that comes along and inflames the problem. Gitaxian Probe and CB are the main problem engines in legacy today. Fetchlands are a greater problem engine, but one that won't be solved since they won't reprint duals.

    Associating SDT with slow play is a Counterbalance & fetchland problem - these are about the only reason you spin Top over and over and over between untap steps. The only way Top was the right ban is if we were trying to ban the Shahrazad-sleaziness aspect of endlessly floating wincons to trick an obviously dead opponent into continuing to waste time such that they cannot assemble more rounds towards a better match result. If you want to fix Top, unban it and knock out Counterbalance...crap design should not always equal ban. This banlist swap brings back a non-blue deck that can counter a turn zero SnT (Painter) and gives card filtering to non-cantrip cartel (that means you have a tool to not savagely rip lands off the top after a Terminus!).

  9. #19509
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Top is a poorly designed magic card whose origins begin in Ice Age with Elemental Augury. For some reason R&D thought they should reduce both halves of the cost by a factor of three; changing just one of the costs to would have made SDT a more reasonable card. It's a poorly designed card, just like many others. Poorly designed as it is, Counterbalance is the problem card that should be banned.

    Que up the "SDT/CB was in legacy for years without being a problem, until Terminus..." and all you need to do is point to Bazaar of Baghdad to highlight how a ban should actually take place by targeting the problem rather than playing whack-a-mole with every card or mechanic that comes along and inflames the problem. Gitaxian Probe and CB are the main problem engines in legacy today. Fetchlands are a greater problem engine, but one that won't be solved since they won't reprint duals.

    Associating SDT with slow play is a Counterbalance & fetchland problem - these are about the only reason you spin Top over and over and over between untap steps. The only way Top was the right ban is if we were trying to ban the Shahrazad-sleaziness aspect of endlessly floating wincons to trick an obviously dead opponent into continuing to waste time such that they cannot assemble more rounds towards a better match result. If you want to fix Top, unban it and knock out Counterbalance...crap design should not always equal ban. This banlist swap brings back a non-blue deck that can counter a turn zero SnT (Painter) and gives card filtering to non-cantrip cartel (that means you have a tool to not savagely rip lands off the top after a Terminus!).
    Top was a poorly designed card because a) nigh infinite spam of the sorting ability and mainly b) it's basically indestructible and when you catch it, it normally causes card disadvantage. If the first ability required tapping and the second ability would only draw if the Top was actually put on top (otherwise, fizzling), it would have caused alot less problems.

  10. #19510
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The heart of the problem is that Wizzerds banned a shitty, iterating Ponder when they should've banned "infinite counterspells for X mana and zero cards," and that's compounded by the fact that they didn't learn from their mistake.

    Bunch of rocket surgeons over there.
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  11. #19511
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    Top was a poorly designed card because a) nigh infinite spam of the sorting ability and mainly b) it's basically indestructible and when you catch it, it normally causes card disadvantage. If the first ability required tapping and the second ability would only draw if the Top was actually put on top (otherwise, fizzling), it would have caused alot less problems.
    Yeah the design is terrible, but that doesn't make legacy unplayable by handing one side access to an insurmountable advantage. Leovold, TNN, DRS, Bstorm, Cavern, Vial, and most of the hits in legacy could be better designed but they don't really stop an opponent from playing legacy without resorting to a highly specific subset of cards. If CB is turned on we know the list of cards you have to use (there's 6 major ones and about 2 minor ones); if Top is running rampant through legacy all on it's own, who cares - your gameplay style/cards chosen for deck doesn't really have to adapt. SDT makes discard worse for sure, I'd call that a win (though that is subjective).

  12. #19512
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Fellas, I've just discovered that there is a card called Recross the Paths.



    I am literally shaking, how can this card exist and not be banned?

    You may think to yourself, "well who would play such an awful card!"
    Well, I came across this unbelievably upsetting article on Reddit: https://old.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/c...t_and_lessons/

    He stacked his deck MULTIPLE TIMES in the tournament. Now as we all know, cards that allow you to stack your deck will KILL tournament attendance and RUIN Legacy as we know it. 4 round tournaments will run for 48 million hours if we allow such utter depravity.

    Fellas hold me, I'm so upset. Legacy as we know it will be DEAD until this very niche card in a very niche and shit deck is banned.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Dat 1/1 with built in pump. Watch out Griselbrand here comes lizard mid range.
    Quote Originally Posted by Von View Post
    Is this a troll or are gobbos really dtb?

  13. #19513
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    that version of belcher's been out for a few years. also completely folds to a FoW.
    -rob

  14. #19514

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    that version of belcher's been out for a few years. also completely folds to a FoW.
    I'm 99% sure he was making a 'subtle' jab at the argument made for Goblin Recruiter being banned

  15. #19515

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rascalyote View Post
    I'm 99% sure he was making a 'subtle' jab at the argument made for Goblin Recruiter being banned
    I appreciate the quotes around subtle. But, yea, the Goblin Recruiter ban is nonsense. I'm not just saying that because four of them are sitting in my binder staring at me every time I try and build goblins. Yes I am.

  16. #19516
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I'm aware, but it's a bit different when the deck in comparison generally finishes its games in 5 minutes, sometimes less.

    Goblins matches do take considerable time.
    -rob

  17. #19517
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Since then do Goblins fold to getting Recruiter countered?

    I think you are comparing a low risk, high value card with potential for stalling to a high risk gamble which can outright lose you the game
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  18. #19518
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    We are comparing two cards that will see about as much play as each other. No joke. Recruiter will see a spike in play and then vanish.
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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  19. #19519
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    We are comparing two cards that will see about as much play as each other. No joke. Recruiter will see a spike in play and then vanish.
    Yeah, because one is banned and the other is a trashy sidetrait in a deck losing to next to every discard, counter and resistor in the format
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
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  20. #19520
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    We are comparing two cards that will see about as much play as each other. No joke. Recruiter will see a spike in play and then vanish.
    I'd play the hell out of it. I miss Food Chain Goblins so fucking bad.

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