View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #20601
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    You really show a lack of understanding for anything that goes on outside you little stompy/lands universe (stax is just a worse version of a chalice-stompy deck). Being able to run some of the most broken lands which let you jump ahead on the curve on every turn while powering out these colorless creatures which were insanly pushed to create hype for PT OGW ruining a format with 8 not 16 (+cloudpost) sol lands avaliable sure sounds like a huge deckbuilding cost.
    Ever played with 8 Sol Lands, 4 of which self destruct and 4 of which kill you? They are not the bases for a stable mana base. Running them is a real cost. Thats why the Eldrazi build itself is different. Its got the extra effects, but they are limited in power and that itself limits your options. Its why Eldrazi is the most able of the stompy decks of late, a fact I see as a future not a bug.


    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    BS has the deckbuildng cost of losing tempo because you are casting a spell that's not impacting the board not giving you CA. Sure the advantagaes of card selection and virtual CA outweigh that but it's not 0 cost. Furthermore in any fair xerox deck you are running less specific answers because you have the ability to search for them. This is necessary cause as I stated earlier as a fair deck you are pulled in many different directions so you need something to midigate the "wrong half"-problem or you will just get dumpster because you drew the wrong cards in the wrong MU (honestly you still loose to that in most G1).
    Wait, wait, go back. Your complaining about decks running Chalice and you are stating it sucks to find the "Wrong Half" of your deck when you have cantrips? HAHAHA. Wow. Just Wow. That has to be the most inane argument I have ever seen on the topic. At least its the most tone deaf.


    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    This is really not different than running crop rotation/gamble in lands with which you can find any of your silver bullets for any MU, so you should understand that.
    Not quite. The cost of not playing Blue and being competitive in this format is to be hyper redundant. Normally playing a deck that has some form of Tinker, Recall and some form of Tutor. The deck that does that best is Elves. As for if it different to cantrips, it is. Sure, a Crop Rotate can get you the answer you need, but its effect is hyper limited and it will not find me a Sphere for example against Storm. These effects are limited outside of Blue. The effects played are strong, but not universal. Its the trade off you made. With Blue you are not having to make these trades.


    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    The deckbuiling cost of running your answers like this is that you will naturally have a hard time finding your stuff when your engine is attackted.
    Seems like that is a weakness of your deck, maybe I should exploit that. Unless you think there is something naturally unfair in my playing a very inconsistent strat to interact with your hyper consistent one. I do not know what the issue here is. Seems like your identifying a weakness that can be used against you. Why not use it?


    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    Especially if its with artifact or enchantments which have very few playable maindeckable anwers because of the color pie another reason you have to play blue and counterspells in the first place.
    So again what your saying is you have a weakness that is being exploited? Question, have I ever complained about Bloodmoon or B2B here? Because these two cards exploit a weakness in my deck and I just kind of roll with it. Playing cards in the sideboard that help when this kind of thing shows up. Thats what the rest of us have to do when shit like this happens. We just deal with it. Why is the cantrip shell above getting struck down by its own weaknesses?


    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    That's why all decks not running cantrips are attacking that engine in someway (Thalia, Chalice or just comboing before it becomes relevant.)

    So every deck you are facing as a fair xerox dekcs is either having the same cantrip engine or attacking your engine in some way. I know that it won't stop then neverending whining in here how op brainstorm and friends are, but claiming they have 0 costs is just funny.
    So let me get this straight. Brainstorm has this cost in tempo that is worthy of mention above, that is seen as a deckbuilding cost because that is why you brought it up. But yet everyone not running such cards is, in your words, "are attacking that engine in someway". You cant have it both ways mate, either its a cost, therefore you have a point to make, or its a format warping situation that everyone builds around or is forced to interact with. These two things are not the same. Pick one.
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  2. #20602

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    It seems like what you're saying here is that if someone successfully interacts with your cantripping, then you cannot cantrip for answers to that impediment. This doesn't seem like a disadvantage to me, but rather a natural effect of someone being able to interact with your cantrips. If someone interacts with your spells, then they are interacted with. Like, if your cantrips were uncounterable that would help with the "problem" you described. But that is just absurd, because the cantrips are already the superior strategy, even with the answers that currently exist. They don't need help to remain relevant. And to be clear, running few answers like this is not a "deck-building cost", it's a huge advantage that is enabled by the very cantrip shell.
    My argument was never that chalice is op, gosh... What I am saying is that its creating uninteresting binary gameplay. Same goes for 3cmc mess up your whole mana base enchantments. It becomes a game of "do you have it or not?. Because e.g. it is really unlikely to draw an answer if you cannot immediatly force a chalice. Sure sometimes it happens but often the game is basically over on T1. I mean if thats something for you and dice sure go ahead. I find it boring af and that was my whole point.

  3. #20603

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dice_Box View Post
    Ever played with 8 Sol Lands, 4 of which self destruct and 4 of which kill you? They are not the bases for a stable mana base. Running them is a real cost. Thats why the Eldrazi build itself is different. Its got the extra effects, but they are limited in power and that itself limits your options. Its why Eldrazi is the most able of the stompy decks of late, a fact I see as a future not a bug.



    Wait, wait, go back. Your complaining about decks running Chalice and you are stating it sucks to find the "Wrong Half" of your deck when you have cantrips? HAHAHA. Wow. Just Wow. That has to be the most inane argument I have ever seen on the topic. At least its the most tone deaf.



    Not quite. The cost of not playing Blue and being competitive in this format is to be hyper redundant. Normally playing a deck that has some form of Tinker, Recall and some form of Tutor. The deck that does that best is Elves. As for if it different to cantrips, it is. Sure, a Crop Rotate can get you the answer you need, but its effect is hyper limited and it will not find me a Sphere for example against Storm. These effects are limited outside of Blue. The effects played are strong, but not universal. Its the trade off you made. With Blue you are not having to make these trades.



    Seems like that is a weakness of your deck, maybe I should exploit that. Unless you think there is something naturally unfair in my playing a very inconsistent strat to interact with your hyper consistent one. I do not know what the issue here is. Seems like your identifying a weakness that can be used against you. Why not use it?



    So again what your saying is you have a weakness that is being exploited? Question, have I ever complained about Bloodmoon or B2B here? Because these two cards exploit a weakness in my deck and I just kind of roll with it. Playing cards in the sideboard that help when this kind of thing shows up. Thats what the rest of us have to do when shit like this happens. We just deal with it. Why is the cantrip shell above getting struck down by its own weaknesses?



    So let me get this straight. Brainstorm has this cost in tempo that is worthy of mention above, that is seen as a deckbuilding cost because that is why you brought it up. But yet everyone not running such cards is, in your words, "are attacking that engine in someway". You cant have it both ways mate, either its a cost, therefore you have a point to make, or its a format warping situation that everyone builds around or is forced to interact with. These two things are not the same. Pick one.
    Their mana base looks pretty fine to me from the opsing side tbh. Consistantly curving chalice into tks into endbringer while having 4 eye of ugin to inevitably curve any flood into uncounterrable double vindicate doesn't seem neither limited in power nor avaliable options to me. What options does that deck lack in your opinion? You have removal, counterspells, sweepers, taxing effects?

    Again, I am not complaining about the powerlevel of chalice but about the binary boring games it creates. I never thought the game was over after t1 ponder.

    So a crop rotation can find you Karakas, Wasteland, Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm and Bojuka bog at cmc1 but is hyper limited in answering stuff because it can't find a sphere in this 1 MU. I see... It can find you the tomb for your t1 sphere btw, so don't tell me its a bad card against storm.

    All the unfairish decks in legacy do some broken shit, otherwise they would not be consistent. The fair blue decks get their consistency in exchange. Sounds fair to me ( I am not talking about blue combo decks here). Or what unfair things are the blue decks doing that I am missing?

    Dude, you told me there is no cost in running the xerox strategy. Now you are telling me the way "my" decks are constructed leaves an angel of attack that you are exploiting... That's contradictorary af the cost is in fact being super vulnerable to those effects with limited counterplay. Again I have a problem with the gameplay it creates not the fact that there is an angle of attack. Thalia/2cmc spheres for example is much better designed than chalice imo because you can still play your stuff even though you are significantly slowed down. You get an interesting back and forth if your tempo los is too much to overcome or if you can catch back up. With chalice you mindtwist for 4 on t1 and the game is just over.

  4. #20604
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    “why cant you accept my opinion as objectively correct”
    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    I still have a strong suspicion that if 'Thalia, Heretic Cathar' had been named 'Frank, Heretic Cathar', people would be a lot more skeptical of it.
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    Ugh, there he goes again, talking about the girlfriend. We get it dude.

  5. #20605
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    If you're consistently being placed in an unwinnable situation on turn 1 then may I recommend making changes to your deck? 2 mana artifact removal isn't that uncommon. Hell you can even jam Ingot Chewer or Crash if you want to keep as low a curve as possible.

  6. #20606

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I think Chalice rubs people the wrong way because it runs contrary to every rule about deck building: low mana curve, play the most efficient threats and answers that are good on their own, minimize variance. Instead, Chalice decks have a very high curve, you can get away with playing garbage piles like Popeye Stompy and still win games, and the deciding factor is all about the variance of opening hands. So let's say you're accomplished Spike, you build your deck according to everything you've been taught, jam all the best and efficient one drops in your deck, and someone shows up and punishes you for it. I can see why it's a bummer for some people.

    I can see some similarity with Dredge: individually all the cards are utter garbage but taken together they become unstoppable and very hard to interact with (at least game 1). You show up with your pimped-up Jaces and Force of Wills, ready for fun interactive Magic the way Garfield intended, and the player across the table utterly destroys you with shitty 1/1 flyers for 1U and ball lightnings for 3B. This is not As It Should Be. And just like with Chalice, people are often reluctant to play appropriate hate because come on, I'm not playing bad cards just to beat that matchup, that would break the cardinal rules of deck building. And they still lose to it, as evidenced by the recent MTGO Challenges.

    In my opinion the presence of decks like this are a feature of the game, not a bug. There should be many decks with cards that are individually bad but together form some cool synergies. There should be decks with many cards that only fit into that deck because of some weird rule interaction between two cards that were printed 10 years apart (LED/Infernal Tutor anyone?). Chalice + Sol Lands are a fantastic mechanic. Storm and Dredge are fantastic mechanics. Aluren, Food Chain and Painter's Servant are fantastic cards. This is what I play Legacy for: the broken and weird stuff, the cool interactions that makes everyone laugh round the table at the LGS, casting Ugin turn 2, Feline Longmore going off for 10 minutes before forcing targeting her opponent with BSZ for X=60, Julian Knab attacking his opponent for 153, Andrew Tompkins putting in Emrakul off Gerry Thompson's Hypergenesis. If I wanted to play fair control/midrange slugfests where each role for each archetype is clearly filled by one best card, I'd play Standard or something.

    You can't just say "well then there will always be a best card yadda yadda yadda" because we know it wasn't always like that. There used to be a time where playing bad cards together because their synergy would attack a certain angle of the metagame was not only viable, but tier 1 depending on the metagame. Now our only way to do that is with Chalice and Sol Lands, let us have that. And please, not every game has to be a mental masturbation fest with two masterminds interacting on the stack like true intellectuals or something. Sometimes I just want to mindlessly jam Chalice, TKS, Blood Moon, Show and Tell, whatever, and turn things sideways until you die. Let us have that too.

  7. #20607

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    All the unfairish decks in legacy do some broken shit, otherwise they would not be consistent. The fair blue decks get their consistency in exchange. Sounds fair to me ( I am not talking about blue combo decks here). Or what unfair things are the blue decks doing that I am missing?
    Let's say you and I were to duel to death. Each one of us has 3 seconds to open a box, find a weapon in it and shoot.
    Box A has got a 95% of chance to be empty and 5% of chance to give you an Auto-Aiming-Insta-Kill Pew Pew Laser.
    Box B has got a 5% of chance to be empty and 95% of chance to contain a gun.
    Which box do you take?

    I don't think the concepts of "fair and unfair", "broken and unbroken" have much sense in today's legacy, to be honest. Canadian is traditionally considered a fair deck, but if a Canadian player gets a good hand you won't be able to resolve one single spell. How in the heck can you call that "fair"? When fair decks get too powerful, e.g. the grixis delver era, that means they are so consistant that it doesn't matter what you threaten to do; you won't do it because they can always dig into a counterspell or an answer.

    Now, onto the chalice issue, when looking at numbers it's actually clear that cotv is not the ultimate strategy against blue decks. Chalice decks are a minority in placement statistics compared to fair decks, and in my opinion that is a clear example of what i said before. Once in a while you might get your early chalice online and completely trump their hand, but most of the times it won't be that game because they have fow, daze, pierce, thoughtseize etc. When your lock pieces are in the bin, dueling a blue deck with a less consistant deck becomes difficult, especially because their power level isn't really that much worse and they are consistant in answering your threats.

    I think chalice decks are good for the format because they provide another viable shell. And while it might be trivial at times (game revolves around whether or not they got a lock piece), so is any combo matchup. Chalice is fine where it is.

  8. #20608
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    Now you are telling me the way "my" decks are constructed leaves an angel of attack that you are exploiting...
    Angel of Attack
    Creature - Angel

    Flying
    Angel of Attack cannot be
    countered by Chalice of the
    Void. Your skill intensive
    cards cannot be countered
    by Chalice of the Void.

    "I am not complaining about
    the powerlevel of chalice but
    about the binary boring games
    it creates."


    1/2

  9. #20609

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    In my opinion the presence of decks like this are a feature of the game, not a bug. There should be many decks with cards that are individually bad but together form some cool synergies. There should be decks with many cards that only fit into that deck because of some weird rule interaction between two cards that were printed 10 years apart (LED/Infernal Tutor anyone?)
    While I agree with the general sentiment, I have to point out that in reverse, "piles of good cards" also end up providing 90% of the interaction. While the weirdness and brokenness of Legacy is equally appealing to me, a gauntlet of Reanimator vs Dredge vs Storm is not exactly something I'd be looking forward to. It's the problem of decks with cool synergies: most of them are inward-looking, more intent on doing their own little thing then interacting with the opponent, and exceptions are few and far between.

    Note that is not meant to signify any support for the banning of Chalice: it's a prison card, like many other prison and hate cards, their not fun when you're on the receiving end, but as far as I'm concerned, the very concept belongs as much in Legacy as all the other stuff you mentioned. So sure, let's leave Chalice alone, and applaud the diversity that is Legacy, but personally I would not think much of the format if the fair decks were not there to hold it together.

  10. #20610

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew View Post
    Angel of Attack
    Creature - Angel

    Flying
    Angel of Attack cannot be
    countered by Chalice of the
    Void. Your skill intensive
    cards cannot be countered
    by Chalice of the Void.

    If you durdle around,
    sacrifice Angel of Attack.

    "I am not complaining about
    the powerlevel of chalice but
    about the binary boring games
    it creates."


    1/2
    Added the missing bit for you.
    Last edited by Alfy; 10-29-2018 at 01:22 PM.

  11. #20611

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfy View Post
    While I agree with the general sentiment, I have to point out that in reverse, "piles of good cards" also end up providing 90% of the interaction. While the weirdness and brokenness of Legacy is equally appealing to me, a gauntlet of Reanimator vs Dredge vs Storm is not exactly something I'd be looking forward to. It's the problem of decks with cool synergies: most of them are inward-looking, more intent on doing their own little thing then interacting with the opponent, and exceptions are few and far between.

    Note that is not meant to signify any support for the banning of Chalice: it's a prison card, like many other prison and hate cards, their not fun when you're on the receiving end, but as far as I'm concerned, the very concept belongs as much in Legacy as all the other stuff you mentioned. So sure, let's leave Chalice alone, and applaud the diversity that is Legacy, but personally I would not think much of the format if the fair decks were not there to hold it together.
    The thing is, now you can't play decks that aren't piles of good cards unless they aren't doing something completely broken in the first two turns of the game. I mean people are still trying to get things like Tezzerator or Zombardment to work, and maybe they will get onto something, but for every player who spends time and effort developing these, there are dozens of grinders playing whatever amalgam with a name like Color Combination + Namesake Card/Archetype is fashionable at the moment. There just isn't any reward in deviating from the norm.

    In my opinion Chalice is not punishing enough for grinders. There should be a Magus of the Chalice (0/1 with X +1/+1 counters or something), a Magus of the Trinisphere, as well as a Duosphere and a Unisphere costing 2 and 1 (to punish free alternate costs), and Maguses thereof. Magus of the Smokestack. Magus of the Sun. Alpine Magus. Bring it on Wizards, just stop printing goodstuff blue toys.

  12. #20612
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    Their mana base looks pretty fine to me from the opsing side tbh. Consistantly curving chalice into tks into endbringer while having 4 eye of ugin to inevitably curve any flood into uncounterrable double vindicate doesn't seem neither limited in power nor avaliable options to me. What options does that deck lack in your opinion? You have removal, counterspells, sweepers, taxing effects?
    Consistency. It lacks consistency. Contary to what you think, a game plan all in on landing a single powerful effect is not very strong. You can lose to a lot of things but they are normally Force, Daze and Wasteland. Once you are behind there is often no way to get ahead. It is why Eldrazi was more or less a flash in the pan and then vanished. Sure, its still around but you know what I mean.


    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    Again, I am not complaining about the powerlevel of chalice but about the binary boring games it creates. I never thought the game was over after t1 ponder.
    Run answers to your issues. Everyone else has to.


    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    So a crop rotation can find you Karakas, Wasteland, Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm and Bojuka bog at cmc1 but is hyper limited in answering stuff because it can't find a sphere in this 1 MU. I see... It can find you the tomb for your t1 sphere btw, so don't tell me its a bad card against storm.
    Its a bad card against Storm. It has one trick up its sleeve that you have to take up another sideboard slot to use. Also did you notice something about everything you listed? They are played together in only one deck. The effect of Rotation is therefore limited to the only decks that are built to use it. If the card was not limited more people would play it. Sure, I can make good use of it but I have to build to do that, trying to reduce some of the cards limitations though deck construction. The card is, as I said, hyper limited. Lands just makes good use of its limitation.


    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    All the unfairish decks in legacy do some broken shit, otherwise they would not be consistent. The fair blue decks get their consistency in exchange. Sounds fair to me ( I am not talking about blue combo decks here). Or what unfair things are the blue decks doing that I am missing?
    Nothing in Legacy is really "Fair". But that is semantics. What your missing here is that your bitching about a known stat people can abuse, not seeking answers. "Oh shit I lost" not "Oh good thing I have answers to this". Know what I do when a Bloodmoon lands? I find my answer or lose the game. Thats how the format works for some of us. Just because someone is playing Brainstorm and Ponder does not make them immune.


    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    Dude, you told me there is no cost in running the xerox strategy. Now you are telling me the way "my" decks are constructed leaves an angel of attack that you are exploiting... That's contradictorary af the cost is in fact being super vulnerable to those effects with limited counterplay.
    There is no cost to playing Brainstorm apart from having to be Blue (Check for most decks) and having access to Fetches (Check again). Sit that next to "I can't play one drops" for running Chalice or "My mana base has to be red and I am limited to all the effects that come with that" if you plan to build around Moon. These are real costs. 'Shit I have to play Blue and Fetches' is not a cost.


    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    Again I have a problem with the gameplay it creates not the fact that there is an angle of attack. Thalia/2cmc spheres for example is much better designed than chalice imo because you can still play your stuff even though you are significantly slowed down. You get an interesting back and forth if your tempo los is too much to overcome or if you can catch back up. With chalice you mindtwist for 4 on t1 and the game is just over.
    Bloodmoon does this to me. Oh and I never have Brainstorm, Ponder or other such shit to find my answers at the best of times. Sometimes I cant even cast my answers because I have no Green. Wow that card fucks me hard, woe is me that people play Bloodmoon. People really should not play Bloodmoon because I am hard done by. I should be aloud to do what I want without someone playing an answer to my stat and be left alone. Its unfair others play answers to my deck even though its a know quantity in this format. I mean I even run answers to Bloodmoon in the side and I am still hard done by. Lets all Bitch about my poor deck and cry that it has an counter in this, the format of counters to powerful effects.

    Wait, why are you all laughing at me and not coming to complain about Bloodmoon? You all think its fine my stupidly powerful effects gets shut down by a single card and think that is fine in Legacy? Funny, I was thinking the same about Chalice.
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  13. #20613

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    The thing is, now you can't play decks that aren't piles of good cards unless they aren't doing something completely broken in the first two turns of the game. I mean people are still trying to get things like Tezzerator or Zombardment to work, and maybe they will get onto something, but for every player who spends time and effort developing these, there are dozens of grinders playing whatever amalgam with a name like Color Combination + Namesake Card/Archetype is fashionable at the moment. There just isn't any reward in deviating from the norm.
    Isn't that how any format ends up when it is closed to solved? And isn't Legacy by nature always closer to being solved, considering the lower impact of newer cards? I'm not saying it isn't more fun to live in a time of dynamism and crazy brewing, but it's unrealistic to think it can last.

    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    In my opinion Chalice is not punishing enough for grinders. There should be a Magus of the Chalice (0/1 with X +1/+1 counters or something), a Magus of the Trinisphere, as well as a Duosphere and a Unisphere costing 2 and 1 (to punish free alternate costs), and Maguses thereof. Magus of the Smokestack. Magus of the Sun. Alpine Magus. Bring it on Wizards, just stop printing goodstuff blue toys.
    Here, I strongly disagree. I remain of the idea that brewing and diversity in decks is better promoted through cards that can be played rather than through cards that stop you from playing. Making prison decks dedicated at eradicating the current forerunners is not only unfair to those who enjoy playing such decks, it also creates even more of a toss-a-coin meta where what you meet is more important to your success than how you play.
    there are enough supplementary products getting released each year that WotC could find the time, if they wanted, to try out fun stuff for Legacy. And I mean beyond the obvious win-con-for-Miracles or SB-card-vs-Reanimator-and-S&S. There's a lack of imagination and effort there, but that's mostly because Legacy is not exactly a money maker for them. It's too bad, I still think there's design space that can be tapped while being inappropriate for Standard or Modern.

  14. #20614

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alfy View Post
    Isn't that how any format ends up when it is closed to solved? And isn't Legacy by nature always closer to being solved, considering the lower impact of newer cards? I'm not saying it isn't more fun to live in a time of dynamism and crazy brewing, but it's unrealistic to think it can last.
    In a good meta the top decks ebb and flow and it is never clear what is the best thing to play. It is sort of like that in Modern. At the very least you could have a rock-paper-scissors situation where the top dock constantly rotates due to being vulnerable to others parts of the meta.

    Here, I strongly disagree. I remain of the idea that brewing and diversity in decks is better promoted through cards that can be played rather than through cards that stop you from playing. Making prison decks dedicated at eradicating the current forerunners is not only unfair to those who enjoy playing such decks, it also creates even more of a toss-a-coin meta where what you meet is more important to your success than how you play.
    Exactly! That's the point! Magic should be about matchup variance. There should be a real thought process about which deck to pick, which strengths and weaknesses to choose, which cards to be vulnerable to and which cards to beat. You know, metagaming. If there's a deck that's 50% against the field what's the point of playing something else? And if you dislike variance so much and want it to be solely about skill why not just cut through the chase and go play chess or something? That's not a summary dismissal, I used to play chess competitively. It's crazy fun. But when sit across my opponent to jam some Magic, I don't want to feel like a mastermind trying to outwit everyone or something. I want to feel like a gladiator, where everyone has different weapons, where the constant imbalance of the game keeps shaking up the field to the point nobody is certain of anything anymore, where the simple process of pairing up become a thrill in itself, where every matchup is a completely different game and requires completely different skills, where making to the top8 is not solely due to intellectual superiority but a mix of astuteness, boldness and being favored by the gods.

    Please don't try to shoehorn Magic into something that it is not. Variance and matchup diversity are what makes every game unique and the whole game infinitely replayable. Meanwhile, chess is slowly growing out of fashion because 70% of games at top level end up in draws and there are like three established best openings that have been set in stone up to the 20th move. You may have fun this way, but it's not fun the way Garfield intended ;-)

  15. #20615

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by chunderbucket View Post
    Meanwhile, chess is slowly growing out of fashion because 70% of games at top level end up in draws and there are like three established best openings that have been set in stone up to the 20th move.
    On the other hand, up until International Master level, nobody knows 20 moves of theory and everyone plays their pet opening trying to win with both white and black no matter what. Even at super-duper GM level, there are some players who strive to play interesting Chess (e.g.Mamedyarov) and people who are constantly refreshing and reinventing out-of-fashion openings e.g. Caruana with his Russian Defense.

    Chess is doomed to be a bit stale because, say what, they don't print new different pieces every year. But even then, it has got its own slow metagame shifts. 1. d4 was considered too passive and boring for centuries, but then the sicilian theorycrafting happened, the Berlin endgame was discovered, and now everybody and their mother is playing d4.

    Fischer chess looks interesting. Might as well try that.

  16. #20616
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Chalice decks are terrible for magic and the card leads to more stupid games than any card in the format other than maybe SnT. The card is already restricted in Vintage, which sets a precedent its eventual legacy banning. The card isn't banned already because existing Chalice decks are inconsistent (you can only play 4 Chalice...), and thus pretty bad at winning bigger tournaments - you have to get really lucky. But one day there will be something that pushes Eldrazi or Steel Stompy or whatever else over the line. For the moment Chalice decks just troll around and snipe random blue players in a tournament before falling to their own variance.

    I think legacy players broadly fall into two camps, the first being people who want the format to be some libertarian carnival where anything goes and as few cards as possible should be banned. For those players Chalice archetypes are just another wacky family member. The most important thing to strive for is 'as many playable decks as possible' and Chalice increases that number. The second camp includes players who are more competitive and/or more interested in magic being about technical gameplay. For those players, stuff like Chalice leads to fewer interesting games and increases the % of games won by bad players. These players aren't gonna shed tears about losing Chalice decks or SnT because those decks don't lead to competitive or technically interesting Magic games.

    The important thing to remember is that these two groups want very different things out of the format.

    Also - people like Dice Box who think that this just comes down to 'lol just play answers n00b' can't grasp that these cards are still boring whether or not people play answers as they lead to games where someone either finds their highly targeted answer (shatter effect for Chalice, edict for TNN etc.) and wins, or doesn't and loses. Choosing to increase the number of answers you have to inherently uninteractive cards helps your win % vs them, but they're still boring and linear games where you either got that answer or didn't.

  17. #20617

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cave View Post
    On the other hand, up until International Master level, nobody knows 20 moves of theory and everyone plays their pet opening trying to win with both white and black no matter what. Even at super-duper GM level, there are some players who strive to play interesting Chess (e.g.Mamedyarov) and people who are constantly refreshing and reinventing out-of-fashion openings e.g. Caruana with his Russian Defense.

    Chess is doomed to be a bit stale because, say what, they don't print new different pieces every year. But even then, it has got its own slow metagame shifts. 1. d4 was considered too passive and boring for centuries, but then the sicilian theorycrafting happened, the Berlin endgame was discovered, and now everybody and their mother is playing d4.

    Fischer chess looks interesting. Might as well try that.
    This post has nothing to do with magic but I liked it. +1.
    Quote Originally Posted by Laser Brains View Post
    With the printing of Gigantosaurus, Thrashing Brontodon and Steel Leaf Champion the deck has evolved from good to very competitive. Anyway, give it a few play tests if you are interested and let me know what you think.

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    With veteran explorer I know that I 100% will not enjoy a 30 minute grindfest against someone who can barely afford dual lands and believes that their deck can cast a 10 mana 8/8.

  18. #20618
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    ... these cards are still boring whether or not people play answers as they lead to games where someone either finds their highly targeted answer (shatter effect for Chalice, edict for TNN etc.) and wins, or doesn't and loses. Choosing to increase the number of answers you have to inherently uninteractive cards helps your win % vs them, but they're still boring and linear games where you either got that answer or didn't.
    I think this is a very important aspect commonly labeled as "blowout" in games. Gamestates and matchups so flipsided that they require specific hardcounters to not leave you dead in the water.

    T1 Chalice (on the play) isnt much different for many players on the receiving end than other T1 blowouts like Trinisphere, SnT, Ad Nauseam, Minds Desire, Necropotence, Y.Bargain, etc.

    I dunno if we get anywhere by pointing to the "opportunity cost" to reason blowouts. If I'd play devils advocate, I would need to brush off complaints about T1/T2 kills in general by pointing to "the opportunity cost of not running blue and counterspells". Why it's fine to do tell people to just splash BG and run "niche" removal like Abrupt Decay and Co then in order to prevent blowouts? Do we tell Burn to just splash black for Edicts to handle Reanimator? I think, that's not quite the way we wanna go down here.
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  19. #20619
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cave View Post
    On the other hand, up until International Master level, nobody knows 20 moves of theory and everyone plays their pet opening trying to win with both white and black no matter what. Even at super-duper GM level, there are some players who strive to play interesting Chess (e.g.Mamedyarov) and people who are constantly refreshing and reinventing out-of-fashion openings e.g. Caruana with his Russian Defense.

    Chess is doomed to be a bit stale because, say what, they don't print new different pieces every year. But even then, it has got its own slow metagame shifts. 1. d4 was considered too passive and boring for centuries, but then the sicilian theorycrafting happened, the Berlin endgame was discovered, and now everybody and their mother is playing d4.

    Fischer chess looks interesting. Might as well try that.
    I play a ton of chess on my android, it's easily my 2nd favorite game. Very cool shout-out, and applicable to how Legacy as a slowly changing format works. You can talk Sicilian and d4 all you want, but I'm addicted to the Italian game. E5, knight f4, Bishop c5. Attack that f7 pawn with a vengeance. It's probably why Turbo Depths is so appealing. Fast, early tricks that can catch opponent's unaware...or get my ass handed to me. Strong correlations.

    I think Chalice is just fine in the format. I don't play it myself, but I'm also not salty when I lose to it either. It's part of being prepared to battle Legacy. I did a bunch of playtesting with someone picking up Dredge for the new metagame, and it's absurdly good. Like, 'lights out good' against most people packing only Surgical Extraction. I lost a ton of games to it in testing, and I loved it. It's not a traditional magic deck, it takes advantage of loopholes more than almost any other deck, and it's awesome. Not my style, but I'm so glad quirks like this exist in Legacy.
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  20. #20620
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by iatee View Post
    Also - people like Dice Box who think that this just comes down to 'lol just play answers n00b' can't grasp that these cards are still boring whether or not people play answers as they lead to games where someone either finds their highly targeted answer (shatter effect for Chalice, edict for TNN etc.) and wins, or doesn't and loses. Choosing to increase the number of answers you have to inherently uninteractive cards helps your win % vs them, but they're still boring and linear games where you either got that answer or didn't.
    Having Grizzlebees land turn one is boring, watching TNN do it's thing is boring, watching someome B2B another player out of the game is boring, watching someone masterbate with Cantrips is boring...

    Did you have a point, or are you just complaining? I understand turn one blow outs. Play Lands against BR Reanimator and see how it feels. Everyone has their bad match, bitching about Chalice is just the pass time of those who want Brainstorm to resolve. The rest of us lose to other shit that you don't care about and just roll with it.

    Seriously, I can bitch about Bloodmoon, Reanimator, B2B Miracles, Enchantment Nic Fit (Shocking hard for me to beat) or just about anything else and people will say "You play Lands, you have to expect bad matches". It cuts both ways. Chalice just eats you like Reanimator or Bloodmoon eat me. Live with it, that's Legacy.

    Or play the victim, you do you.
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    Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
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