View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #22301
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    On the b&r coming up, I would find it really hard to believe that modern can continue to justify their Summer Bloom ban when Uro exists.
    How does Uro enable Turn 2 hasty Primeval Titan?

    T1 land, Amulet of Vigor
    T2 Simic Growth Chamber bouncing itself. Summer Bloom. Growth Chamber x3. Primeval Titan tutoring Boros Garrison+Slayers' Stronghold. Attack for 8 trample vigilance haste, get 2 more lands.

    That's why Summer Bloom was banned.

  2. #22302
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Summer Bloom is a high variance cheese that only works in the first ~3 turns of a game (hand size requirements). Oko shares tribe with Primetime [Cavern], is not 2cmc [Snare], a creature [Pierce], and Bloom got banned before FoN was a card. Their deck is 10% on mtgtop8; it doesn't need a high variance cheese. All that Summer Bloom would do is trick them into keeping a horrid hand once FoN came to collect.

  3. #22303
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Anybody else believes Summer's Veil is toxic for Legacy and should get axed?

    I wouldn't mind it as much if it were just an effective tool for Combo decks to combat blue decks (a bit like a green Pyroblast or an updated Xantid Swarm). The fact that it also shits all over non-blue decks trying to rely on discard to fight combo seems to me like it invalidates a lot of strategies that already struggled with several combo decks in the first place.

    Astrolube is a fine card and a cool addition to Welder shenanigans. Buffing basic lands brings all sorts of good to the format IMO.

    They might as well ban Oko though since I don't think banning Veil or Astro would solve much. I don't think Oko is necessarily too powerful for Legacy but if you combine it with Astro it breaks too many restrictions that other decks simply have to comply with and therefore stifles diversity.
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  4. #22304
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I couldn't stop myself from putting down my view on each of these cards.. It's a bit of a rough sketch.
    Here's my short take, I guess it's a mix of rationality and what I feel that the cards affect the overall metagame, with deck diversity, and play patterns etc..

    Oko

    - Homogenizes fair decks [edit: and combo hybrids like food chain, aluren, worldgorger dragon, infect, and painter], reduces format diversity, runs over artifact lock-pieces and big creatures and is the premier threat in any fair deck and also some combo decks. It doesn't do anything good for the format at large.

    + I still like to play the card though, so I'm not opposed to it staying, but I think it would make for much more interesting deck diversity if it left.

    Astrolabe

    + The card enables decks to do more and is fun to play in many decks, like you mention with Welder, it makes it possible to run less duals.

    - It has this big problem of making 5c good stuff piles too easy to build. The 5c good stuff piles reduce the incentive to run different types of decks, so for format diversity it should be banned. I like the card so I wouldn't mind if it stayed, but the format would be better off without it.

    Veil

    + Opposite to the two above cards, I don't see the card having a negative effect on the overall metagame, it forces deck to play more varied interaction and think more carefully about how they build their decks and how they interact, which are all good effects for format diversity and requiring more tactical and strategic skill from players. I actually think it has a hugely positive effect on format diversity by making Hymn and Kolaghan's Command attrition less competitive, which gives a lot of fair strategies some breathing room. If it was too good in combo, making combo oppressive, that might be a reason for a ban, but I don't see that happening (yet). Edit: I actually feel like Pyroblast is still a better card than Veil.

    - The main problem with it is that it's hard to play around it in the late-game for blue-black decks. I feel like it's a luxury problem for the game, it's not fun to have the opponent effectively counter one of your spells and draw a card, but that's the only problem I can see with it, it feels bad to have it played against you. The card is quite good against certain blue and black heavy decks, I wouldn't be sad if it left but I think it needs to stay around for another 6 months to see how it affects the meta game.

    Edit: oh yeah, to understand my post and my arguments it may help to understand what I think makes a format good, here is a comment on that. The values I have for deciding on format health.. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1080964
    Last edited by pettdan; 03-06-2020 at 08:14 AM.

  5. #22305
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    Summer Bloom is a high variance cheese that only works in the first ~3 turns of a game (hand size requirements). Oko shares tribe with Primetime [Cavern], is not 2cmc [Snare], a creature [Pierce], and Bloom got banned before FoN was a card. Their deck is 10% on mtgtop8; it doesn't need a high variance cheese. All that Summer Bloom would do is trick them into keeping a horrid hand once FoN came to collect.
    Modern is all about banning high variance cheese, like Grishoalbrand. They don't want players losing the game on turn 2-3, even if it's variance, and they ban any combo that leads to fast wins, even if blue decks can easily hate it out. Summer Bloom works on any turn of the game (they can replay the same land 4 times, they don't need 4 different lands), though without Amulet it is mainly a turn 2 card.

    Uro is less than 3%. The main Amulet Titan decks don't even run Uro. The "Titan Field" deck that does is much less prevalent:

    https://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/modern#paper

    https://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=348&meta=51&f=MO

  6. #22306
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    Oko
    - Homogenizes fair decks, reduces format diversity...
    The mechanism behind that statement is pretty easy to infer, but to help out those who think Astrolabe should get banned:
    -vs. an otherwise empty board which has an Astrolabe, you cannot cast a PW and pass the turn with 3 or less loyalty. JTMS is an especially poor PW against Astrolabe on board b/c using the [0] will cost you your walker (vs Oko in hand or on top of deck). Using +2 is an insta-loss to REB, and even without REB it's still horrible vs an opponent deploying Oko next turn (taking JTMS to 2). Oko is like the FTK test back in the day, and most PWs fail it [homogenization].
    -the following sequence is not beatable by fair decks: turn 1 Astro -> turn 2 something -> turn 3 Oko (chooses either [+2] or [+1] on threat big enough to otherwise 1-shot Oko) -> turn 4 Wrath (by any name) -> still turn 4 use [+1] and have a hasted 3/3 to work on life total or opposing PW. Ask yourself what any not-combo deck is going to do to beat this sequence, because dealing 6 to a PW the very next turn is not trivial. You can already largely count out PWs, creatures, and artifacts. The type of effects needed to beat the above sequence (and the power level of those effects need) is an exceedingly short list [decreases format diversity].

    While removing Astrolabe would blunt the problem, it would not remove it. Oko would sit around (still very much playable as a 1-card combo) and parasitize any future 0-1cmc artifact that cantrips by staying on board. WotC will print that card, you can count on it. Remember when we banned the wrong card (SDT), y'know the 1-drop artifact that draws cards without going to the graveyard...yeah...they reprinted it (Astro). They're going to keep exploring that space b/c power creep exists. There's nothing inherently game-breaking about a 1-drop cantrip artifact that stays on board, so you need to turn the ban attention onto the short list of cards that exploit them instead: Counterbalance and Oko.

    @FTW ah, I just figured if Uro is sitting at $30-40 that modern must be behind it. I still maintain though that trying to make it to top tables on the back of auto-loses to FoN Summer Bloom hands would be a dumb strategy (hoping to dodge that matchup for an entire say grand prix). Uro, while slower, will have little problem doing the same thing as Bloom in a much more consistently reliable way - and Bloom's FoN nightmare scenario, those are decks Uro actively wants to play against. I don't play modern, but I imagine that most of that format's issues revolve around Titan not being priced into running Bloom (getting wrecked by FoN) and having access to Uro's lifegain to make linear engine progress against aggro. You just have to let the other decks in the format lose some games to ABCD in hand (Amulet, Titan, Bloom, bounce land); these decks are probably getting butchered by Tron anyhow so what does it matter if Titan occasionally blows them out? Titan probably cleans up the format a bit with how good it (probably??) is vs Tron.

    Looking at it from the legacy side of things, land-based combo like 12-Post don't really add anything positive to the shaping of the format; the most positive thing they do is troll Snapcaster value spam decks when they get out of hand. You get a deck like Lands and suddenly you're crushing Delver and able to add meaningful counterplay and checks on a healthy format (12-Post requires a sick format to become a positive). Seems like Modern finally has the cards to let balanced strategies contest their Lands deck (Titan), while that deck pushes out the ridiculousness, thus giving balanced strategies a better picture of what the metagame is. Their version of Lands is pretty crude and derpy, unlike legacy Lands' fine-tuning (does your deck have answer to 20/20, how are you against mana denial, is your deck good enough for legacy i.e. can it hang with Loam/Mox, do you have a plan vs P-Fire, can you beat Tabby/Karakas/Zone/Bog/Maze, etc...)...but that battlecruiser nonsense is kinda what you sign up for when you use an off-balance pool of cards like modern.

  7. #22307
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Keller View Post
    After all this crap, you don't buy ANYTHING being banned in Legacy? They probably came together and put this announcement together BECAUSE of Legacy.
    Well, as passé as it is now, I am by default a skeptic, so when someone says X, Y or Z should be banned, my first thought will always be, "OK, but why?"

    I want to see evidence, I want to see cases made. At the moment, I honestly have not seen a strong case made, in my opinion. That doesn't mean I have "made up my mind" or anything and I do really try to not be ideologue.

    However, I am going to be even more skeptical of any case made, where the case is just a list of opinions. Even in the event I agree with those opinions, I am likely going to conclude that it was not a "strong case."

    But, that is my own personal view.
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  8. #22308

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Well, as passé as it is now, I am by default a skeptic, so when someone says X, Y or Z should be banned, my first thought will always be, "OK, but why?"

    I want to see evidence, I want to see cases made. At the moment, I honestly have not seen a strong case made, in my opinion. That doesn't mean I have "made up my mind" or anything and I do really try to not be ideologue.

    However, I am going to be even more skeptical of any case made, where the case is just a list of opinions. Even in the event I agree with those opinions, I am likely going to conclude that it was not a "strong case."

    But, that is my own personal view.
    Wizards doesnt follow that logic im afraid, and does what they does when they wants.

  9. #22309
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by itslarryyo View Post
    Wizards doesnt follow that logic im afraid, and does what they does when they wants.
    Well, yeah, I mean, I don't work for Wizards and that is likely best for everyone, because my sort of attempts at Socratic methodology and dialectical thinking would likely be anathema to what is actually likely their process.

    Heck, everyone here hates it, I doubt anyone would like it. Honestly, I don't even like it sometimes, it's just what I do though.
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  10. #22310

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    On the b&r coming up, I would find it really hard to believe that modern can continue to justify their Summer Bloom ban when Uro exists.
    If they are banning a ramp card in Modern, it is going to be Primeval Titan itself.

  11. #22311
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Of the 3 cards seriously being discussed, I think the only card that would make any sense is Astrolabe. While I love the idea of Astrolabe being a great mana-fixing tool for budget minded players it is actually doing the opposite by enabling absurdly powerful good-stuff piles, piles that will destroy anybody's attempt at getting into the format with a budget Astrolabe-assisted mana-base. Astrolabe also has a potent effect on Blood Moon and Wasteland, making both of them less powerful. I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing, it's just a large change to how Legacy approaches land-based disruption. Overall I love the card, but I want to see it go so that there isn't the same amount of homogenization of 4-5c control piles like we saw in the Deathrite era. It's a structural challenge in the format, not a power-based challenge. There is very little risk in adding whatever colors you want to make your deck work perfectly, without the lifeloss of fetches or weakness to Wasteland/Blood Moon.

    Veil is fine, it's a better Pyroblast in most cases. I love how it can be used in TES and for blue-based slugfests. Non-blue decks have a really good card to battle blue. I think it's great for the format. The splash damage against black is a little unfortunate, in my opinion, but that is completely consistent with historical color-pie identity. I think we'll adjust to this card in an appropriate way given another 3-4 months of adjustment.

    Oko is just right for the format with the caveat that Astrolabe isn't in the format. Perfect mana and a target to make a 3/3 to attack is just plain perfect synergy with this PW. By itself the synergy is not overpowered, but the perfect mana means you can play Brainstorm, Thoughtseize, Pyroblast, Swords to Plowshares, and Veil of Summer all in the same deck (just 5 colors worth of examples.)

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  12. #22312
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Arcum's Astrolabe and Prismatic Vista being printed in the same year was a mistake.

    Each individually has its drawbacks, but getting both at once was too much of a kick to Wasteland and Moon strategies all at once. Any base 2-color deck can play 8 fetches that grab either basic (e.g. Flooded Strand or Prismatic Vista get both Island and Plains, letting UW cut down to 1 Tundra), which was already strong against mana denial, and Astrolabe lets that manabase play 4 colors without drawback.

    Should Labe be banned? The problem is it also helps fair decks, artifact decks and budget decks too. How do you change the format so it only helps budget strategies but doesn't power up Uxxx control? I would love to see them ban Snow-Covered Island. It's a subtle change (you can still fetch Island), but it stops blue-centric decks from abusing Astrolabe. If you want to abuse Astrolabe and Oko and Ice-Fang, you'd have to forgo Xerox and play a lot of Forests. If you want Oko in Xerox, you'd have to drop Astrolabe and Ice-Fang. That seems like enough drawback to make the strategies fair. Neither Oko or Astrolabe are inherently broken on their own, it's just the interaction between the cards enabled by playing a bunch of Snow-Covered Islands.

    For now maybe Moon decks need to start playing Boil in the board.

  13. #22313
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Arcum's Astrolabe and Prismatic Vista being printed in the same year was a mistake.

    Each individually has its drawbacks, but getting both at once was too much of a kick to Wasteland and Moon strategies all at once. Any base 2-color deck can play 8 fetches that grab either basic (e.g. Flooded Strand or Prismatic Vista get both Island and Plains, letting UW cut down to 1 Tundra), which was already strong against mana denial, and Astrolabe lets that manabase play 4 colors without drawback.

    Should Labe be banned? The problem is it also helps fair decks, artifact decks and budget decks too. How do you change the format so it only helps budget strategies but doesn't power up Uxxx control? I would love to see them ban Snow-Covered Island. It's a subtle change (you can still fetch Island), but it stops blue-centric decks from abusing Astrolabe. If you want to abuse Astrolabe and Oko and Ice-Fang, you'd have to forgo Xerox and play a lot of Forests. If you want Oko in Xerox, you'd have to drop Astrolabe and Ice-Fang. That seems like enough drawback to make the strategies fair. Neither Oko or Astrolabe are inherently broken on their own, it's just the interaction between the cards enabled by playing a bunch of Snow-Covered Islands.

    For now maybe Moon decks need to start playing Boil in the board.
    On the contrary! Giving Wasteland and Moon strategies a kick is a net positive for the format IMO. Moon, Chalice, and Wasteland are probably the most common culprits for non-games.

    Banning Snow Island is a very interesting solution to me. I agree with you that Astro and Oko aren't inherently broken and I wouldn't mind seeing them stick around. The only thing I find noxious about Astrolabe is the fact that it enables 4-5c blue-centric soups to take over the entire Control archetype and greatly reduces the diversity of what is viable in the format. However I fear it wouldn't be enough to just ban Snow Islands simply because playing blue duals isn't that difficult and Astro + Snow basics will fix for blue more often. I feel this change will give Wasteland some of its former power back but won't prevent 3-4c Oko Control abominations from taking over.

    The more I think about it and the more I think banning both Oko and Astrolabe is the only way out...

    With just Oko banned you still have Bant Miracles decks with Astro + Teferi/Jace/Entreat/Terminus/Coatl abusing all the best cards from 4 colors and defaulting back to Mentor and Snapcaster instead of Oko.

    With Astro banned the metagame is still warped around Oko but with more variations because you now get to choose between Temur (probably midrangey), BUG (value based control), and Bant (Miracles without Pyroblast). In such a meta I don't think it would take long for Bant Miracles to cement as the top tier Oko deck and we would be back to square one with the bannings having only effectively extracted Pyroblast from Miracles. Furthermore we are now sitting on a time bomb with regards to the next cheap value artifact seeing print.
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  14. #22314

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    2019 was a mistake. Can't we just erase that year from the game's history?

  15. #22315

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Two different cards that serve(d) two different purposes. I get the comparison, but there isn't really one. Probe was on a whole other level of degenerate.

  16. #22316
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Not that I am in principle against the ban of anyone among Astrolabe, Veil and/or Oko, but pages of discussion and expectation for the next monday announcement and nobody names the elephant in the room?

    Nobody is playing online and considering that that is the data Wiz looks at?

    Underworld Breach.

  17. #22317

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    yeah Underworld Breach is tier one but why not just ban led ?

  18. #22318
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by talpa View Post
    Not that I am in principle against the ban of anyone among Astrolabe, Veil and/or Oko, but pages of discussion and expectation for the next monday announcement and nobody names the elephant in the room?

    Nobody is playing online and considering that that is the data Wiz looks at?

    Underworld Breach.
    It’s already been discussed very heavily elsewhere, discords and podcasts. It's like you say the number one target for a ban today, that part is fairly uncontroversial I'd say. I think it's too early yet, and the other three cards are more interesting to discuss for me personally. I'm guessing others feel similarly.

  19. #22319

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by talpa View Post
    Not that I am in principle against the ban of anyone among Astrolabe, Veil and/or Oko, but pages of discussion and expectation for the next monday announcement and nobody names the elephant in the room?

    Nobody is playing online and considering that that is the data Wiz looks at?

    Underworld Breach.
    Yeah, that can very well be the case. Or maybe just hammer all of them and go back to the pre Wr6 status-quo, because if you just ban breach you are still left with oko-astrolabe.

  20. #22320
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Calling it now:

    Wizards: "Legacy: No changes. Something something monitoring Underworld Breach very closely."
    Community: "WHY SHOULD WE PUT SIDEBOARD CARDS IN OUR DECKS TO BEAT NEW THINGS?!"

    Wizards in two weeks: "Underworld Breach is banned. It has a disproportionately high win-rate against people who aren't adjusting their strategies. Chalice of the Void continues to ruin people's day."
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