View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Page 1003 of 1178 FirstFirst ... 350390395399399910001001100210031004100510061007101310531103 ... LastLast
Results 20,041 to 20,060 of 23542

Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #20041
    Member
    talpa's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jan 2016
    Location

    Italy
    Posts

    141

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Watersaw View Post
    There's nothing arbitrary about it
    Sure. And someone wonders why I start trolling.
    You seriously think that the color of the animal is more important than his species.
    The logic behind the fetchland-hinders-diversity group is "it doesn't matter if it is carnivorous or herbivore, the important distinction is it has 4 legs".
    After all it doesn't matter if you are the lion or the gazelle, just start running.

  2. #20042

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Watersaw View Post
    There's nothing arbitrary about it. Take any deck with a fetchland manabase and replace them with whatever duals you want. The deck will be worse 100% of the time. You need them to compete.
    That statement is just pointless because you can always make it with whatever is the best type of dual land available in the format.

  3. #20043
    Greatness awaits!
    Lemnear's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2010
    Location

    Berlin, Germany
    Posts

    6,998

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by talpa View Post
    Sure. And someone wonders why I start trolling.
    You seriously think that the color of the animal is more important than his species.
    The logic behind the fetchland-hinders-diversity group is "it doesn't matter if it is carnivorous or herbivore, the important distinction is it has 4 legs".
    After all it doesn't matter if you are the lion or the gazelle, just start running.
    Except that we keep pointing to that all of them being mammals, just to stick to your chosen anecdote. The joke is that you opt to ridicule the point of grouping them together as mammals, by pointing to the fact that many animals have a neocortex, hair and three middle ear bones
    www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!

    Join us at Facebook!

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  4. #20044
    Hymn-Slinging Mod
    H's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2008
    Location

    The U-easy-anna
    Posts

    3,413

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    Well said. Saying that fetchlands reduce diversity because most manabases are built with them is really a new kind of crazy even for the regulars of this threat.
    Nah, it's the usual sort really, just taken to it's logical extreme. Which figures, that over 1000+ pages, years and years, people have consolidated and entrenched their ideological stances.

    We simply can't have a format that isn't exactly 20% White, 20% Blue, 20% Black, 20% Green and 20% Red. No card should be more than 5.6580287427860133529478329749915e-5 of the meta game (yes, that is 1/17674th) or it should be banned for stifling format diversity. Once we ban Fetchlands, we can begin banning any other land that displays the gall to be better than any other. Once we have done that, we can inspect the array of Basics and see if perhaps Island is just a little too good.

    The nostalgic desire to return to pre-Onslaught Legacy is pipe dream. It's a nice idea, in theory, but denies the fact that, one, there are orders of magnitude more cards now than there was then, and two, that many of those cards are flatly better than those that came before them. You can ban Fetches and Brainstorm, or what-have-you, but the no one is going to show back up with Hollywood's mono-Green stompy deck and beat people with a River Boa any more. That ship sailed. You can want it back, just like you want your aging children to return to their cute, playful infant selves, but it's not going to happen and so Legacy isn't going to return to it's "former glory" or whatever you call it, recall it, or imagine it was.

    Legacy is pretty much predicated on the idea that certain things are just flatly better than others. But I'll leave it at that, because I don't have the time at this moment to go into it and it'll put in my other thread eventually.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  5. #20045
    Member
    talpa's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jan 2016
    Location

    Italy
    Posts

    141

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Except that we keep pointing to that all of them being mammals


    Exactly. And because of that, it's a kind of classification that doesn't help seeing the differences between them but is only able to see them all as equal, even if they aren't.

    I wasn't planning on replying but your comment is so laughable and self-denying that I couldn't resist.



    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    The nostalgic desire to return to pre-Onslaught
    The fun thing is that they could simply play another format, like pre-modern. I really can't understand why they keep wanting to change legacy.
    It is like if people enjoying old-school asked for vintage bans instead of making their own format.

  6. #20046
    Hymn-Slinging Mod
    H's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2008
    Location

    The U-easy-anna
    Posts

    3,413

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by talpa View Post
    The fun thing is that they could simply play another format, like pre-modern. I really can't understand why they keep wanting to change legacy.
    It is like if people enjoying old-school asked for vintage bans instead of making their own format.
    Well, I think it is partly because Legacy lacks the clear format definition that Vintage has, due to the nature of it's Restricted List. Without a clear answer to what Legacy should be, you'll get this kind of multiplicity of answers and expectations, many/most of which are just personal preference ideologized.

    And, if I recall correctly, a decent part of the rise in interest on Old School (here in the US) was Vintage player's unhappiness about the "current state" of the Format.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  7. #20047

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    We simply can't have a format that isn't exactly 20% White, 20% Blue, 20% Black, 20% Green and 20% Red. No card should be more than 5.6580287427860133529478329749915e-5 of the meta game (yes, that is 1/17674th)
    Look at Mr. Google Calculator over here.

  8. #20048
    Hymn-Slinging Mod
    H's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2008
    Location

    The U-easy-anna
    Posts

    3,413

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Look at Mr. Google Calculator over here.
    As if I am that much of a hipster...I used the Windows Calculator, like a true old fogey.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
    Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order

  9. #20049
    Greatness awaits!
    Lemnear's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2010
    Location

    Berlin, Germany
    Posts

    6,998

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by talpa View Post
    I wasn't planning on replying but your comment is so laughable and self-denying that I couldn't resist.
    Because someone rather derails the thread with fauna anecdotes than targeting the original question, of how much sense it makes to wait & watch until the next TC, DTT, SDT, DRS, etc emerges, breaks the format and gets banned in a ridiculous and repeditive circle
    www.theepicstorm.com - Your Source for The Epic Storm - Articles, Reports, Decktech and more!

    Join us at Facebook!

    Quote Originally Posted by Echelon View Post
    Lemnear sounds harsh at times, but he means well. Or to destroy, but that's when he starts rapping.

    Architect by day, rapstar by night. He's pretty much the German Hannah Montana. Sometimes he even comes in like a wrecking ball.

  10. #20050
    Member
    talpa's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jan 2016
    Location

    Italy
    Posts

    141

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    Because someone rather derails the thread
    Exactly, when the thread is going on a broken path, trying to derail it is good. I mean, objectively, indubitably, indisputably good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemnear View Post
    until the next TC, DTT, SDT, DRS, etc emerges, breaks the format and gets banned in a ridiculous and repeditive circle
    Exactly. I subscribe to that, I drink to that, I wait for that.

  11. #20051
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    Hell in a Nutshell
    Posts

    5,246

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by talpa View Post
    Sure. And someone wonders why I start trolling.
    You seriously think that the color of the animal is more important than his species.
    The logic behind the fetchland-hinders-diversity group is "it doesn't matter if it is carnivorous or herbivore, the important distinction is it has 4 legs".
    After all it doesn't matter if you are the lion or the gazelle, just start running.
    This is dishonest. You are putting words in that weren't there. Several times you have restated things with qualifiers added (ie good, more important.) He didn't say what you just said, which means you are adding to it and attacking it as a different thing than what it is. That's a strawman; make it different so you can attack it better.

    At this point...

    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  12. #20052
    Member
    talpa's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jan 2016
    Location

    Italy
    Posts

    141

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    strawman
    you are obsessed with this, uh?
    Don't worry, you don't have to teach me logic, I did university level studies on math and physics and I know what paralogisms and fallacies are.
    That's not the case.
    The point is you are arbitrarily choosing the classification categories, in a way that happens to support your theory but only because is a very narrow one. That means that your tautology become completely useless if what you really meant to do was doing a sensible classification.

  13. #20053
    Site Contributor

    Join Date

    Apr 2014
    Posts

    950

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by talpa View Post
    you are obsessed with this, uh?
    Don't worry, you don't have to teach me logic, I did university level studies on math and physics and I know what paralogisms and fallacies are.
    That's not the case.
    The point is you are arbitrarily choosing the classification categories, in a way that happens to support your theory but only because is a very narrow one. That means that your tautology become completely useless if what you really meant to do was doing a sensible classification.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatDeleuzeGuy View Post
    I want to play as close to possible a 100% reactive deck that also approached 0% variance in how it played. I want to play magic with as little variance as possible. Also had a foiled out miracles deck that was an investment of about 6 grand that is now nearly worthless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    My original post did that.

    I'd love to have a battle of wits with you but I see you lack the necessary equipment.

    Good day.

  14. #20054

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    Plz don't dox me bro.

  15. #20055
    Member
    talpa's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jan 2016
    Location

    Italy
    Posts

    141

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by CptHaddock View Post
    how smart am I
    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    and fun also

  16. #20056
    Site Contributor

    Join Date

    Apr 2014
    Posts

    950

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by FourDogsinaHorseSuit View Post
    Plz don't dox me bro.
    Just seeing posts from the last couple of months I think i've doxxed more than just you. Sry, friend.
    Quote Originally Posted by ThatDeleuzeGuy View Post
    I want to play as close to possible a 100% reactive deck that also approached 0% variance in how it played. I want to play magic with as little variance as possible. Also had a foiled out miracles deck that was an investment of about 6 grand that is now nearly worthless.
    Quote Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee View Post
    My original post did that.

    I'd love to have a battle of wits with you but I see you lack the necessary equipment.

    Good day.

  17. #20057
    Here I Rule!!!!!!!!!!
    Phoenix Ignition's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2008
    Location

    Minneapolis MN
    Posts

    2,287

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by talpa View Post
    you are obsessed with this, uh?
    Don't worry, you don't have to teach me logic, I did university level studies on math and physics and I know what paralogisms and fallacies are.
    That's not the case.
    The point is you are arbitrarily choosing the classification categories, in a way that happens to support your theory but only because is a very narrow one. That means that your tautology become completely useless if what you really meant to do was doing a sensible classification.
    Did pi4meterftw make another account and pretend to be Italian this time? This thread is a mtgthesource gem and I hope it never changes.

  18. #20058
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    Hell in a Nutshell
    Posts

    5,246

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by talpa View Post
    you are obsessed with this, uh?
    Don't worry, you don't have to teach me logic, I did university level studies on math and physics and I know what paralogisms and fallacies are.
    That's not the case.
    The point is you are arbitrarily choosing the classification categories, in a way that happens to support your theory but only because is a very narrow one. That means that your tautology become completely useless if what you really meant to do was doing a sensible classification.
    Demonstrated again: I haven't arbitrarily chose *any* classification categories. Nor have I attempted to support any theories. I have asked a question, an open-ended one at that, and others have disused it with me. At the most I have made 2 tentative assertions: that some cards would become ok, as in unbanned, if fetchlands left the format (DRS, etc.), and also that without fetchlands rounds would have more time to play magic rather than shuffling.

    That's it.

    So tell me, using any quote in this thread at all from the past 10 pages, where I categorized decks based on fetchlands or where I presented a structured theory about banning fetchlands. I have speculated, made 2 (tentative) assertions, and even submitted that it might not be correct to ban fetches. Rather I see it as a talking point, something to bat back and forth.

    Good luck with university, it's clear you know all about those parallelogram phalluses!

    In regards to the thread, and why I keep coming back:

    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  19. #20059
    Member
    talpa's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jan 2016
    Location

    Italy
    Posts

    141

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Good luck with university
    Thank you. You are just a bit late, I graduated fifteen years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    I haven't arbitrarily chose *any* classification categories
    Actually you intervened in defense of watersaw (who claimed it would be right to divide decks based only on fetchland presence here) accusing me of using a strawman when I was asserting that it's not a meaningful way. If we can all agree that there are more appropriate categories then we can move on (and maybe stop considering manabases as a measure of diversity alltogether).

    (EDIT: it's also "fun" that you are the one insisting on strawmen when it's you that started mockery with the sugar metaphor -which was unfounded and was answered not only by me)

    As for the shuffle argument I already conceded many times that it is the only reason I consider real, though insufficient for a ban.

    As for other currently banned cards becoming less powerful, I can agree in principle for some of them, but personally I think both delve cards and top would remain overpowered nonetheless.
    Last edited by talpa; 07-18-2018 at 12:44 PM. Reason: formatting

  20. #20060
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    2,477

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    [1]We simply can't have a format that isn't exactly 20% White, 20% Blue, 20% Black, 20% Green and 20% Red. No card should be more than 5.6580287427860133529478329749915e-5 of the meta game (yes, that is 1/17674th) or it should be banned for stifling format diversity. Once we ban Fetchlands, we can begin banning any other land that displays the gall to be better than any other. Once we have done that, we can inspect the array of Basics and see if perhaps Island is just a little too good.

    [2]The nostalgic desire to return to pre-Onslaught Legacy is pipe dream. It's a nice idea, in theory, but denies the fact that, one, there are orders of magnitude more cards now than there was then, and two, that many of those cards are flatly better than those that came before them. You can ban Fetches and Brainstorm, or what-have-you, but the no one is going to show back up with Hollywood's mono-Green stompy deck and beat people with a River Boa any more. That ship sailed. You can want it back, just like you want your aging children to return to their cute, playful infant selves, but it's not going to happen and so Legacy isn't going to return to it's "former glory" or whatever you call it, recall it, or imagine it was.

    [3]Legacy is pretty much predicated on the idea that certain things are just flatly better than others. But I'll leave it at that, because I don't have the time at this moment to go into it and it'll put in my other thread eventually.
    [1] With Fetchlands we are talking about a concept of an overpowered mana-level engine. If we liken this to the Moxen, we are discussing the same prefix not the suffix.
    [2] In the case of Fetchlands, their legality is the sole reason for their dominance (perfect mana at perfect speed and thinning is better than any other model, and this is all before discussing any cards which use that mana, the shuffle effect, or the land in yard). This isn't about recapturing outdated archetypes, this is about decks having the option to employ differing, specialized, and competitive manabase strategies. As long as Fetchlands are legal [and nothing as powerful/more powerful is released for use by a broad array of strategies], consistently competitive decks will all begin with the same model (minus Cavern/Vial and Sol Land outliers).
    [3] Things being better isn't a problem when they aren't an engine that so clearly decreases diversity. The other strike against the Fetchland engine is the amount of problems it inevitably generates, which have to be constantly monitored in an ever-expanding card pool (Bstorm, DRS, delve...).

    You're throwing on secondary and tertiary analysis, when the point is that if you were trying to create and play a consistently competitive deck without Fetchlands/Cavern+Vial/Sol Lands today you would fail. It takes takes time and/or 'jank' to reverse engineer something that equalizes [or surpasses] the advantage a Fetchland provides - the Fetchland decks don't have to deviate or slow down though, your deck already lost. It is likely that the closest you could possibly get is playing UWx miracles with all Fetchlands swapped to Mirage fetches; but even there you will lose too many games due to negative tempo of ETB tapped lands to compete.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 661 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 661 guests)