View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #2001
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    The new card is not time walk. People need to really get this. There are countless examples of how this is so.

    Basically, Time walk can be used the turn in which you have access to it, the new card goes off next turn assuming that you can set it up.

    The value of being able to take an additional turn imediately is much higher than being able to take one after your next turn. Even though there are many set up cards that can be used to get additional turns with the new card, it is still a multiple card combination instead of a one card combination. In the end, the new card looks the part of a format defining card, but it will probably not be nearly as good as it seems. My bet is that Wizards did thier homework here and that this card is no Delver of Secrets.

    The new wheel of fortune could see some real play because its non miracle cost is pretty reasonable for a belcher or SI build, but that's just my opinion.

  2. #2002

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ramanujan View Post
    The new card is not time walk. People need to really get this. There are countless examples of how this is so.
    - No there aren't. There are, however, countless examples like yours that state TM is not Time Walk just because of a couple hoops.


    Basically, Time walk can be used the turn in which you have access to it, the new card goes off next turn assuming that you can set it up.
    Temporal Mastery can be used at instant speed. The argument that the card needs some "set up" is a poor one as there are plenty of cards that need some setup to get the most out of them and they are banned (SoTF, Worldgorger Dragon, Goblin Recruiter).


    The value of being able to take an additional turn imediately is much higher than being able to take one after your next turn. Even though there are many set up cards that can be used to get additional turns with the new card, it is still a multiple card combination instead of a one card combination. In the end, the new card looks the part of a format defining card, but it will probably not be nearly as good as it seems. My bet is that Wizards did thier homework here and that this card is no Delver of Secrets.
    - Except that in some situations, it's BETTER than time walk, with those situations being that the player with TM is playing blue and SDT.

  3. #2003
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    So, you think this card is that good. How about a bet. 6 month window. If the card is banned I'll give you an underground sea. If it remains unbanned, then I'll take an equivilant value card from you. I am willing to accept these terms, are you?

  4. #2004

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ramanujan View Post
    So, you think this card is that good.
    - I think it's good and ban worthy.


    How about a bet. 6 month window. If the card is banned I'll give you an underground sea. If it remains unbanned, then I'll take an equivilant value card from you. I am willing to accept these terms, are you?
    - Why would I bet $120 with some stranger on a random website about a card being banned when there is no way to verify you'll even uphold your end of the deal? And even if you did, why would I uphold my end? Why would I even agree to such stupid terms to behind with*?

    (rhetorical question)

  5. #2005
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    We can arrange it with a trusted third party somewhere else, PM me if you are willing.

    I have made my case. You disagree. You have made your case. I diagree. There is nothing more to do than wait and see. I am willing to put something behind my opinion which is more than words. Are you?

  6. #2006

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ramanujan View Post
    We can arrange it with a trusted third party somewhere else, PM me if you are willing.

    I have made my case. You disagree. You have made your case. I diagree. There is nothing more to do than wait and see. I am willing to put something behind my opinion which is more than words. Are you?

  7. #2007
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I can see you are not interested in my offer, which was and remains sincere. Either way, I will post that I was right on October 17th.

    I have no more to say on this issue

  8. #2008
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vacrix View Post
    I tried playing Mind's Desire this whole week in various High Tide builds. It was inferior to Time Spiral in every way.
    I don't know, it just sounds totally ridiculous in Spiral Tide (in combination with Time Spiral, not as a replacement). I didn't do any testing though, so you might be right.

  9. #2009

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ramanujan View Post
    The new card is not time walk. People need to really get this. There are countless examples of how this is so.

    Basically, Time walk can be used the turn in which you have access to it, the new card goes off next turn assuming that you can set it up.

    The value of being able to take an additional turn imediately is much higher than being able to take one after your next turn. Even though there are many set up cards that can be used to get additional turns with the new card, it is still a multiple card combination instead of a one card combination. In the end, the new card looks the part of a format defining card, but it will probably not be nearly as good as it seems. My bet is that Wizards did thier homework here and that this card is no Delver of Secrets.
    You do get the extra turn immediately (unless you actually draw the card when you topdeck it instead of casting it), it's just that you aren't allowed to decide when to take it. It's not a Time Walk by any means, it's just probably the biggest tempo advantage that you can cast in Legacy.

  10. #2010
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragoFireheart View Post
    Temporal Mastery can be used at instant speed. The argument that the card needs some "set up" is a poor one as there are plenty of cards that need some setup to get the most out of them and they are banned (SoTF, Worldgorger Dragon, Goblin Recruiter).
    Survival of the Fittest does not require setup. It requires you to have one creature in hand in a deck that probably runs 20+ then it enables your entire deck.
    How does Goblin Recruiter require setup? It stacks your entire deck for 2 mana. I don't even know what you are talking about. What setup is required? 2 lands in play?
    Worldgorger Dragon is a combo peice, not a utility card. It requires setup but it also either wins or draws the game instantly with an Animate Dead. Taking an extra turn does not automatically end the game.

    There's an easy way for one side to end this debate. Show me the decklists. I have yet to see one that doesn't suck. I'm willing to concede it is possible this card will be broken I just don't think it's very likely. I'm very open to changing my mind though the second I see a single shred of evidence that Mastery is going to break the format wide open. It's impossible for us to prove the card is not broke, but a single decklist could easily prove it is broken. Where is this decklist?
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  11. #2011
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Do you think a person with a decklist able to rape a legacy tournament is going to post it here for all people to see just so you can say if you agree with the card being too good or not?

    Keep dreaming.
    Please stop talking about whether Force of Will is broken or not. It obviously is, and rather than "the glue that holds vintage together" it would be better to call it "the rug under which you hide the filth until there's so much that you can no longer conceal it".

  12. #2012
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrJones View Post
    Do you think a person with a decklist able to rape a legacy tournament is going to post it here for all people to see just so you can say if you agree with the card being too good or not?

    Keep dreaming.
    This is exactly what people (myself included) did during the Flash debacle, because there was a real call to have it banned before the tournament and people wanted to make their case.
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  13. #2013

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by caiomarcos View Post
    Desire was actually a preemptive ban, it was banned before being released.
    Not quite. Scourge was released May 17. The banning/restriction was announced June 1. So it was banned/restricted two weeks after its release. It can still be considered preemptive, though, as it really had no chance to have an impact during that time period.

    Though as I said in another topic, I do wonder if it would have been banned in Legacy had, at the time, Legacy existed as its own separate entity. Back then it was Type 1.5, which was just "Type 1 (Vintage), but everything restricted is banned instead" and thus its restriction in Vintage automatically meant banning in Legacy, which would not be true nowadays.

  14. #2014
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    Not quite. Scourge was released May 17. The banning/restriction was announced June 1. So it was banned/restricted two weeks after its release. It can still be considered preemptive, though, as it really had no chance to have an impact during that time period.

    Though as I said in another topic, I do wonder if it would have been banned in Legacy had, at the time, Legacy existed as its own separate entity. Back then it was Type 1.5, which was just "Type 1 (Vintage), but everything restricted is banned instead" and thus its restriction in Vintage automatically meant banning in Legacy, which would not be true nowadays.
    Back in the day sets didn't become legal the day they were officially released. If I remember correctly there was a 2 week lag from release to legality, which would coincide with Mind's Desire entering Vintage banned.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrJones View Post
    Do you think a person with a decklist able to rape a legacy tournament is going to post it here for all people to see just so you can say if you agree with the card being too good or not?

    Keep dreaming.
    Keep Dreaming? LOL, I love getting a talking down to from the only Legacy player to ever call for the banning of Force of Will. The real answer is that if Temporal Mastery was a broken as is claimed we probably would have seen a list by now.

    How about this then, does anyone actually have a list where Temporal Mastery is broken that they aren't sharing because they plan to win an event with it?
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  15. #2015
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I'm not siding with DrJones on this (I mean come on, FoW banned? What is this, ban all cantrips along with it ala Modern?) but just to prove a point, the Survival Vengevine strategy was shut downed and laughed at here at the Source before it took over the format post GP: Columbus.
    I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
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    13NoVa plays Force of Will from his hand.
    Finglonger plays Spell Pierce from his hand.
    [10:22:43]  13NoVa: lol
    sure
    Finglonger points from his Dack Fayden to 13NoVa's Sol Ring.
    [10:23:04]  13NoVa: lol dumb ******; nice draws with retard.dec
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  16. #2016

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes View Post
    Survival of the Fittest does not require setup. It requires you to have one creature in hand in a deck that probably runs 20+ then it enables your entire deck.
    - It also requires you to have specific creatures to abuse it (Rootwalla, Vengevine, etc). SotF in an burn deck is crap. SotF in an elf deck is game-breakingly overpowered.


    How does Goblin Recruiter require setup? It stacks your entire deck for 2 mana. I don't even know what you are talking about. What setup is required? 2 lands in play?
    - You need a Goblin deck designed around it. It can't just be thrown in any deck. You also need to stack Goblins in the correct order. Mindlessly stacking goblins will result in failure.

    Worldgorger Dragon is a combo peice, not a utility card. It requires setup but
    - You admitted as least one the cards I listed requires setup, which was the entire point of listing those cards.


    Quote Originally Posted by (nameless one) View Post
    I'm not siding with DrJones on this (I mean come on, FoW banned? What is this, ban all cantrips along with it ala Modern?) but just to prove a point, the Survival Vengevine strategy was shut downed and laughed at here at the Source before it took over the format post GP: Columbus.
    Yep...

    It doesn't matter if someone DID post a deck list dontbiteitholmes. In fact, there is not a single deck list anyone could post. You have already made up your mind. Short of WotC banning the card before the set is even legal, you'll always believe it not ban worthy. So, don't pretend you're clever by asking for a deck list.

    Honestly, the only thing we could agree on is that we disagree. Not that it matters: once the card is legal, we'll quickly find out how good/bad Temporal Mastery is.

  17. #2017

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Cross-posting this from the other thread.

    Did some shitty, half-assed testing of Time Walk 2.0, and I have to revise my original opinion. The card isn't broken. Hell, I'm not even sure if it's great, as I really don't have much real experience at the helm of U/R Delver or Blue Tempo decks.

    However, this card is so fucking annoying to play against. So if it does become a fixture, even a minor one, in the metagame, people will be screaming for a ban. The card allows you to break certain stalemates wide open and turn some losing situations around. An extra attack step, more time to beef up board presence, extra walker activations...it can be powerful. How often? Not sure, but boy does it stick in your mind as total shit.

    Compounding on the swinginess factor is the ever-present Blue Issue; this is a Blue card that does bullshit things and can only be effectively fought through Blue means (mill, counterspells, Stifle). If this was a targeted effect, and other colors could theoretically do something, it might mitigate hate for this card. But since it doesn't target, and Blue means are the only way to really stop it, it's going to catch a lot of flak.

    I don't think this is going to be broken anymore, but man do I hate this card and wish it wasn't printed. Overly swingy effects are some of my least favorite things to play/play against in Magic, and lately Wizards has been injecting a ton of them into Legacy, mostly through absurd fatties, but also through mechanics like Miracle. Not something I'm a fan of, because I don't have the resources nor drive/skill to adopt the detached, uber-pro mindset.

  18. #2018
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Seth View Post
    Not quite. Scourge was released May 17. The banning/restriction was announced June 1. So it was banned/restricted two weeks after its release. It can still be considered preemptive, though, as it really had no chance to have an impact during that time period.

    Though as I said in another topic, I do wonder if it would have been banned in Legacy had, at the time, Legacy existed as its own separate entity. Back then it was Type 1.5, which was just "Type 1 (Vintage), but everything restricted is banned instead" and thus its restriction in Vintage automatically meant banning in Legacy, which would not be true nowadays.
    Remember also that back then, there was a two week delay between a set's release and its legality for tournament play. I'd have to dig up a calendar, but I don't think there were even actual Vintage tournaments in which Mind's Desire could be legally played.
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  19. #2019
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I don't care how irrational it is, ban Insectile Abherration. Card seriously needs to fucking go take a hike.
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  20. #2020
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I'm still tweaking the list, but I won like 20 games in a row on the first turn with Reforge the Soul. A few fizzles, and a few bad mulligans aside, this card is a savage engine. Fuck the Miracle aspect of it, thats irrelevant; they printed a new storm engine that allows you to abuse red ritual acceleration.

    Granted, its a glass house but I think the lists people are coming up with can be tweaked to be faster than even PSI. Does 80% turn 1 kills sound pleasant to you? And I don't mean 80% lol I have a bunch of goblins and win turn 3. I honestly don't know what WotC was thinking with this one. Do they have a ban for something planned? LED perhaps?
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