View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #20301

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Star|Scream View Post
    If the ban blue folks got their way I would play the heck out of a format that only had cards from the Legacy banned list.
    "Only-Banlist Modern" is practically already there

  2. #20302

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by taconaut View Post
    What deck do you want to play that you currently can't? Why do you think it ought to be competitive?
    just some combination of color is not possible it means more diversity.

    white red
    white green
    whit black
    red green
    red black
    green white


    salut

  3. #20303
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I spent a ton of time bitching in this thread, but honestly, I really like where the current environment stands. It was really fun watching GP Richmond.
    Brainstorm Realist

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  4. #20304

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zulabnar View Post
    just some combination of color is not possible it means more diversity.

    white red
    white green
    whit black
    red green
    red black
    green white


    salut
    There are tier decks that use these color combinations, however they do not use them in the way you feel they should. That is the problem. I believe many people who complain about lack of diversity only want to play midrange slugfests with Knight of the Reliquary and Wild Nacatl. It seems to be similar to older people who only enjoy the music they grew up with; Neural Nostalgia.

    The fact is to get back to those types of decks we'd have to ban 5-10 Blue Legacy cards, and at that point (I feel) that fast combo would take over--forcing more bans.

    It's unfortunate to your nostalgia, but blue creatures haven't been as weak as you remember in a long time. They are never going to go back to man'o'war no matter how much you complain.
    Quote Originally Posted by SaberTooth View Post
    if brainstorm is banned, legacy will lost his heart

  5. #20305

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Star|Scream View Post
    There are tier decks that use these color combinations, however they do not use them in the way you feel they should. That is the problem. I believe many people who complain about lack of diversity only want to play midrange slugfests with Knight of the Reliquary and Wild Nacatl. It seems to be similar to older people who only enjoy the music they grew up with; Neural Nostalgia.

    The fact is to get back to those types of decks we'd have to ban 5-10 Blue Legacy cards, and at that point (I feel) that fast combo would take over--forcing more bans.

    It's unfortunate to your nostalgia, but blue creatures haven't been as weak as you remember in a long time. They are never going to go back to man'o'war no matter how much you complain.
    There are definitely cards I think that can and should be banned in Legacy and the format would improve as a whole. However, it isn't unfair to want there to be more viable non-blue fair decks with or without bans. It's not actually asking much. Wizards should take the opportunity to print busted aggro creatures in supplemental products like Conspiracy and Battlebond since that sort of design space is pretty unexplored for older formats anyway.

    Thankfully, Wizards has printed a few pretty good Goblins in the past couple sets and that new Goblin they spoiled today is excellent.

  6. #20306
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Star|Scream View Post
    we'd have to ban ONE Blue Legacy card
    yes, just one.

    dig through time, treasure cruise, sensei's divining top, deathrite shaman, gitaxian probe and several other cards that can be unbanned.

    don't be a shill for brainstorm...

  7. #20307
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zulabnar View Post
    just some combination of color is not possible it means more diversity.

    white red
    white green
    whit black
    red green
    red black
    green white
    LOL the biggest epic fail
    There are tier decks for this color combinations
    Also I'd love to understand what difference do you mean to underline between "white green" (2nd in your list) and "green white" the last in your list

    WR - Red Taxes - example list Nick Tucker 18th/810 SCG Open Worcester
    WG - Maverick - example list Tristan Pölzl 6th/194 MKM Series Paris
    WB - Deadguy Ale / Pikula - example list Owen Watson 16th/187 SCG Duel for Duals
    RG - Belcher
    Scapeshift - example list Billy Smith 21th/621 SCG Team Constructed Dallas
    Lands - example list Lucien Longlais finalist/843 at the last GP Richmond
    RB - Walking Dead or Team Italia (of course they also play white, why shouldn't they? all that matters is that they don't play blue, isn't it?)


    Anyway considering only the color pairs really doesn't mean anything, unless you want to say that UB Death Shadow is the same as UB Ad Nauseam-Tendrills, or that UR Burn is the same thing as Sneak and Show.




    Quote Originally Posted by NeckBird View Post
    it isn't unfair to want there to be more viable non-blue fair decks with or without bans
    See above. They already exist; of course one could never stop asking more and more

  8. #20308

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by non-inflammable View Post
    yes, just one.

    dig through time, treasure cruise, sensei's divining top, deathrite shaman, gitaxian probe and several other cards that can be unbanned.

    don't be a shill for brainstorm...

    I was responding to the cries to ban Delver, TNN, Etc.

    P.S. banning brainstorm isn't going to make Wild Nacatl good again.
    Quote Originally Posted by SaberTooth View Post
    if brainstorm is banned, legacy will lost his heart

  9. #20309
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by talpa View Post
    LOL the biggest epic fail
    There are tier decks for this color combinations
    Also I'd love to understand what difference do you mean to underline between "white green" (2nd in your list) and "green white" the last in your list

    WR - Red Taxes - example list Nick Tucker 18th/810 SCG Open Worcester
    WG - Maverick - example list Tristan Pölzl 6th/194 MKM Series Paris
    WB - Deadguy Ale / Pikula - example list Owen Watson 16th/187 SCG Duel for Duals
    RG - Belcher
    Scapeshift - example list Billy Smith 21th/621 SCG Team Constructed Dallas
    Lands - example list Lucien Longlais finalist/843 at the last GP Richmond
    RB - Walking Dead or Team Italia (of course they also play white, why shouldn't they? all that matters is that they don't play blue, isn't it?)


    Anyway considering only the color pairs really doesn't mean anything, unless you want to say that UB Death Shadow is the same as UB Ad Nauseam-Tendrills, or that UR Burn is the same thing as Sneak and Show.





    See above. They already exist; of course one could never stop asking more and more

    More than half the deck you listed are not viable competitive options. Maverick? Deadguy Ale? Scapeshift? Belcher? Team Italia? Come on...
    It would be nice to be able to play in a somewhat competitive manner a midrange deck that isn't grixis or sultai. Instead, rather than doing something to make different color combinations more appealing, they print shit that strengthens the same old shells like assassin's trophy (that should have definitely been b/w, but is golgari because by some inexplicable reason only golgari gets good cards in ravnica sets).

  10. #20310

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    While we are wish-listing bad shit we wish was playable...
    We've come a long way when we can say that Wild Nacatl is "bad shit we wish was playable".

  11. #20311
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bithlord View Post
    We've come a long way when we can say that Wild Nacatl is "bad shit we wish was playable".
    Yes we have. Even Snapcaster is light-years ahead of where Nacatl is/was. The HMS Nacatl has sailed and sunk, but constantly been dredged back up as some paragon of playabilty, or of pillar of power-level.
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  12. #20312

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeoCop 90 View Post
    More than half the deck you listed are not viable competitive options. Maverick? Deadguy Ale? Scapeshift? Belcher? Team Italia? Come on...
    It would be nice to be able to play in a somewhat competitive manner a midrange deck that isn't grixis or sultai. Instead, rather than doing something to make different color combinations more appealing, they print shit that strengthens the same old shells like assassin's trophy (that should have definitely been b/w, but is golgari because by some inexplicable reason only golgari gets good cards in ravnica sets).
    Finally someone is being honest about what they really want.

    Many of the combinations you listed are viable but none of them are midrange (RB Reanimator, RG Lands, etc.) I'm glad non-blue midrange isn't that great in Legacy. When that happens you wind up playing against Chains and The Abyss, which are miserable to play against (imo.)
    Quote Originally Posted by SaberTooth View Post
    if brainstorm is banned, legacy will lost his heart

  13. #20313

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Star|Scream View Post
    Finally someone is being honest about what they really want.

    Many of the combinations you listed are viable but none of them are midrange (RB Reanimator, RG Lands, etc.) I'm glad non-blue midrange isn't that great in Legacy. When that happens you wind up playing against Chains and The Abyss, which are miserable to play against (imo.)
    Chains, maybe. And that's a good thing. It'd be nice to have a bit more diversity among anti-cantrip cards besides just Chalice of the Void and Thalia.

    The only deck that plays The Abyss is Tezzerator, which is not a midrange deck. Midrange decks would rather play Deluge. And how is The Abyss miserable to play against, but you list RG Lands as a viable option which is a deck that plays Tabernacle?

    I mean, you also list RB Reanimator as if playing against Griselbrand is less miserable to play against than Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant. The fact that few non-blue fair midrange decks, or aggro decks for that matter, are not viable in Legacy is a perfectly legitimate critique of Legacy.

  14. #20314

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeckBird View Post
    Chains, maybe. And that's a good thing. It'd be nice to have a bit more diversity among anti-cantrip cards besides just Chalice of the Void and Thalia.

    The only deck that plays The Abyss is Tezzerator, which is not a midrange deck. Midrange decks would rather play Deluge. And how is The Abyss miserable to play against, but you list RG Lands as a viable option which is a deck that plays Tabernacle?

    I mean, you also list RB Reanimator as if playing against Griselbrand is less miserable to play against than Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant. The fact that few non-blue fair midrange decks, or aggro decks for that matter, are not viable in Legacy is a perfectly legitimate critique of Legacy.
    Please stop. You're twisting words and adding thoughts that I didn't type.

    I'm sorry you can't play the deck you think you should be able to play in this format, but the format has evolved and it would take banning several cards (yes, more than just brainstorm) to allow midrange (let alone non-blue midrange) to have an equal footing. As a parallel, Modern has much fewer cards than Legacy but yet midrange is already dying there in favor of Aggressive decks, combo decks, and hard control. Those decks have access to all the same creatures (Nacatl, Confidant, Goyf) sans Stoneforge and those cards are nearly unplayable.
    Quote Originally Posted by SaberTooth View Post
    if brainstorm is banned, legacy will lost his heart

  15. #20315

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    Yes we have. Even Snapcaster is light-years ahead of where Nacatl is/was. The HMS Nacatl has sailed and sunk, but constantly been dredged back up as some paragon of playabilty, or of pillar of power-level.
    Snapcaster should have been red, and is exemplary as to why player designed cards are a bad idea.

    The biggest reason we have cantrip shell dominance is because they powered up *all* creatures, and at the same time depowered everything else. So all (or pretty much all) the old creatures are invalidated, but none of the old spells are. Couple that with "modern design sensibilities" which dictate that all colors get roughly equal powerlevel creatures, and blue suddenly jumps to the top because it used to get the best spells, and now gets just as good a creatures.

    It is what it is, but I'd just once like to see them make an "oops that was way too powerful" mistake that *isn't* blue.

    Edit: que argument over whether DRS was one such mistake :P.

  16. #20316
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeckBird View Post
    The only deck that plays The Abyss is Tezzerator, which is not a midrange deck.
    I—uh, what?
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  17. #20317
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bithlord View Post
    The biggest reason we have cantrip shell dominance is because they powered up *all* creatures, and at the same time depowered everything else. So all (or pretty much all) the old creatures are invalidated, but none of the old spells are. Couple that with "modern design sensibilities" which dictate that all colors get roughly equal powerlevel creatures, and blue suddenly jumps to the top because it used to get the best spells, and now gets just as good a creatures.
    I don't think the historical record reflects the idea that the Blue was ever not the best color in Magic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bithlord View Post
    It is what it is, but I'd just once like to see them make an "oops that was way too powerful" mistake that *isn't* blue.

    Edit: que argument over whether DRS was one such mistake :P.
    Deathrite was a mistake. That doesn't mean ban-worthy though.

    There are plenty of mistakes, they are in general the highly playable cards in Legacy. There are plenty of non-Blue examples too, Jitte, Aether Vial, Emrakul, Griselbrand, Terminus, Sneak Attack, the list goes on and on (and there are plenty more examples that are actually on the Banned list too). Granted, because of the nature of Legacy, Blue adopts those tools pretty often. That doesn't mean that Blue is the only color the gets really good cards. It's just the fact of the matter that Legacy is, has always been, and will always be the best color in Magic.
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  18. #20318
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeoCop 90 View Post
    More than half the deck you listed are not viable competitive options. Come on...
    Second big epic fail aka I don't want to admit the obvious aka deny the evidence.

    Strangely I saw this objection coming and the answer is already there, in the names and tournaments results: those deck were chosen by strong players and piloted to strong finish in big events.

    So if you continue to complain you are wrong and the reason you do that can be:
    either you like to complain
    Or you hate blue
    Or you fail to admit it isn't your favorite deck that sucks but the player
    Or you pretend to dictate what others should play

    Legacy has tiers but you can put up results with many decks, players just follow their tastes like they follow fashion

  19. #20319

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by talpa View Post
    Second big epic fail aka I don't want to admit the obvious aka deny the evidence.

    Strangely I saw this objection coming and the answer is already there, in the names and tournaments results: those deck were chosen by strong players and piloted to strong finish in big events.

    So if you continue to complain you are wrong and the reason you do that can be:
    either you like to complain
    Or you hate blue
    Or you fail to admit it isn't your favorite deck that sucks but the player
    Or you pretend to dictate what others should play

    Legacy has tiers but you can put up results with many decks, players just follow their tastes like they follow fashion
    I respect your efforts, but the ban-everything-until-maverik-is-great-again crowd will never stop bitching how unfair good blue is. (You can also insert another bad pet deck there)

    I mean do these people now 4c-Loam? It's like a competitive, good maverick But I guess it's too unfair because of Mox Diamond and Chalice, these people only enjoy the pure Maverick expirience.

    Edit: The denial of the competitiveness of the decks you lsitet even when you provided data of TopX finishes at big events made me laugh as well Ban everything until this one guy, how probably just sucks at magic can top 8 an event with his pet deck

    Also no word about D&T which has always been competitive and get's new playable creatures in like evey set... Also to unfair because of the Taxing/Controlling Elements I guess.

  20. #20320
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by MorphBerlin View Post
    I respect your efforts, but the ban-everything-until-maverik-is-great-again crowd will never stop bitching how unfair good blue is. (You can also insert another bad pet deck there)
    If we're gonna talk about unfairness and blue let's talk about how many shitty pet decks have been made even shittier as key cards from them get banned so that WotC and people who jerk off to/with Brainstorm can pretend that Legacy is a serious, competitive format while preserving their sacred cow.

    Brainstorm's still 80% of the top tables, but now instead of Pile, Delver, and Miracles, we have U/B/R Control, Shadow, and Miracles. What a change!

    I mean do these people now 4c-Loam? It's like a competitive, good maverick But I guess it's too unfair because of Mox Diamond and Chalice, these people only enjoy the pure Maverick expirience.
    People probably don't play Loam for the same reason they don't play Lands all that much.

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