All B/R update speculation.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I'm not siding with DrJones on this (I mean come on, FoW banned? What is this, ban all cantrips along with it ala Modern?) but just to prove a point, the Survival Vengevine strategy was shut downed and laughed at here at the Source before it took over the format post GP: Columbus.

Was it? I remember it being largely ignored, but I don't remember an overwhelming objection to it.

Also if you want to talk about peoples initial impressions of cards being wrong we have hundreds of examples on both sides. It wasn't but the last set when Grafdigger's Cage was preordering for $35 and people were claiming Dredge would be ruined. So that doesn't really prove anything that people have been wrong in the past. Everyone has evaluated a card incorrectly at one time or another but that door swings both ways.

- It also requires you to have specific creatures to abuse it (Rootwalla, Vengevine, etc). SotF in an burn deck is crap. SotF in an elf deck is game-breakingly overpowered.

- You need a Goblin deck designed around it. It can't just be thrown in any deck. You also need to stack Goblins in the correct order. Mindlessly stacking goblins will result in failure.

- You admitted as least one the cards I listed requires setup, which was the entire point of listing those cards.

Yep...

It doesn't matter if someone DID post a deck list dontbiteitholmes. In fact, there is not a single deck list anyone could post. You have already made up your mind. Short of WotC banning the card before the set is even legal, you'll always believe it not ban worthy. So, don't pretend you're clever by asking for a deck list.

Honestly, the only thing we could agree on is that we disagree. Not that it matters: once the card is legal, we'll quickly find out how good/bad Temporal Mastery is.

How many times have I said I'm not 100% certain it's not broken I just have yet to see evidence that it is and personally I don't think it will be. Seriously, look at my other posts. I tested it and found it lacking far more often then it was "OMG broken" but I'm only one person. If over 1/3 of the people here feel it's broken I want to know what they know that I don't. What other measure is there of a Legacy card except the decks it goes in? I see a lot of people here spitting out reasons Mastery is so much like Time Walk but where are the lists? I had a lot of trouble making this card even half descent and I get the impression other people are having a similar problem.

Your arguments about Survival, Worldgorger, and Recruiter have nothing to do with the matter at hand. Those are all combo cards that can quickly and powerfully end the game from a losing board position at any point in the game + I don't really follow your reasoning on why Recruiter requires setup when it's all creatures you would be running anyway and there is absolutely zero downside ever of playing Recruiter in Goblins. Apples and oranges anyways though enough of that.

[Vacrix]

Its a little unreal what TES can do with Reforge the Soul. They could Burning Wish for 1R for Reforge the Soul, then hide it on top of their Library with Brainstorm for U. Thats a 2 card investment with 1UR to go off drawing 7 cards on the following turn provided you have 2 perpetual manasources that tap for R. Thats not asking a lot from TES. Its definitely going to be the occassionally Burning Wish target when you need to 'oh shit' button into a new 7, but the setup applications scare me more. It means TES has yet another line of play that lets them recover from a failed attempt with a relatively low investment.

[Technics]

I'm still tweaking the list, but I won like 20 games in a row on the first turn with Reforge the Soul. A few fizzles, and a few bad mulligans aside, this card is a savage engine. Fuck the Miracle aspect of it, thats irrelevant; they printed a new storm engine that allows you to abuse red ritual acceleration.

Granted, its a glass house but I think the lists people are coming up with can be tweaked to be faster than even PSI. Does 80% turn 1 kills sound pleasant to you? And I don't mean 80% lol I have a bunch of goblins and win turn 3. I honestly don't know what WotC was thinking with this one. Do they have a ban for something planned? LED perhaps?

They learned with Necro don't ban the supporting cast, ban the damn card already. If Reforge the Soul is really that broken (And i think it might be) then it will get the axe, not LED or rituals etc.

[majikal]

This whole set is stupid on multiple levels. It reminds me of powered-up versions of all the obnoxiously good cards from Mirage, Tempest, and Urza's Saga blocks. I wouldn't be surprised if they have to ban something (or multiple somethings) in every major format.

[Vacrix]

The thing with Reforge though is that if its in a glasshouse that just chains them together, it will only 1up decks that don't play Force because any deck that does is just going to draw into it after the first or 2nd D7. The deck needs some form of protection and that dilutes the turn 1 kills.

I honestly don't think anything is going to get banned though. We think these cards are overpowered because they look juicy with Miracle costs at 1X. I think WotC has tested these cards thoroughly enough to know just how good each one is going to be.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I don't care how irrational it is, ban Insectile Abherration. Card seriously needs to fucking go take a hike.

If this entire block were wiped from existence, I'm pretty sure it'd be a net positive for the format.

[lavafrogg]

If this entire block were wiped from existence, I'm pretty sure it'd be a net positive for the format.

+1 The new un-killable non-interactive angel is already pissing me off. Let alone the aberration.

[Humphrey]

Can we have Misstep unbanned now? it reduces the crazyness with Brainstorm/Miracle and creatures can be save now with Caverns of Soul

[Lord Seth]

The new un-killable non-interactive angel is already pissing me off. Let alone the aberration.

Avacyn is hardly unkillable and she's probably not going to have much if any impact on the format.

[mrjumbo03]

Avacyn is hardly unkillable and she's probably not going to have much if any impact on the format.

I think they are pertaining to the WG Hexproof, No sacrificing allowed 5/5 Angel.

[Lord Seth]

I think they are pertaining to the WG Hexproof, No sacrificing allowed 5/5 Angel.

Ah, that makes more sense. Guess it's another reason for me to sideboard Phantasmal Image.

[Lemnear]

Its a little unreal what TES can do with Reforge the Soul. They could Burning Wish for 1R for Reforge the Soul, then hide it on top of their Library with Brainstorm for U. Thats a 2 card investment with 1UR to go off drawing 7 cards on the following turn provided you have 2 perpetual manasources that tap for R. Thats not asking a lot from TES. Its definitely going to be the occassionally Burning Wish target when you need to 'oh shit' button into a new 7, but the setup applications scare me more. It means TES has yet another line of play that lets them recover from a failed attempt with a relatively low investment.

Obviously you Never played TES or any storm combo. You realize that you play LED to power spells post-tutor? With your scenario you need 1UR + Wish + Brainstorm + another turn + 1R in upkeep. I cannot believe you seriously consider this. This has no advantage over Diminishing Returns.

[Vacrix]

What the fuck... I play storm combo as my decks of choice. I play Pact Spanish Inquisition and Solidarity. I frequently play TES on cockatrice and would play it regularly IRL if I had the Underground Seas. I've been playing storm combo for 6 years, for the record.. probably longer than you buddy.

There are certainly scenarios where this could be applicable. This is an example scenario.

To quote the part of my post that you clearly didn't read:

It means TES has yet another line of play that lets them recover from a failed attempt with a relatively low investment.

In play:
Gemstone Mine
Chrome Mox (RED)
Lotus Petal

Turn 1 on the draw, you cast Chrome Mox imprinting a red card, play Gemstone Mine, and Lotus Petal (to play around Daze) and tried to cast Ad Nauseam with a Rite of Flame and a Dark Ritual. Your opponent has Force of Will. You pass the turn with Brainstorm in hand as your only card. On the following turn you draw for the turn, and its a Burning Wish. You wish for Reforge the Soul and Brainstorm to put it on top of your library. You go off and draw 7 cards during the upkeep of the following turn.

Granted, you could wait to go off but say your opponent casts a turn 1 Delver, flipped next turn, followed by a Chain Lightning and a Vexing Devil. You might not have the turns you think you have against URx Tempo to just reassemble a combo turn that involves, rituals, LED, and a tutor.

I'd say it has an application over Diminishing Returns. Diminishing Returns requires you have a LED after Burning Wish. You don't always have a LED nor time to wait or cantrip into one.

[Humphrey]

Somehow everybody seems to think youre the only one who draws 7. The opp gets a full hand with force and/or daze too. Let alone Mindbreak Trap or Extracion
So without Chanteffects or Defense Grid the deck loses more to blue than Belcher.

[Vacrix]

Sure but its effect is congruent to Diminishing Returns and TES already plays that as an 'oh shit' button. It doesn't change much except now TES doesn't necessarily need LED to go to that line of play if it really needs to, given that Reforge is an much more forgiving RR rather than Diminishing Returns UU.

In the play above, you're pretty much fucked anyway. You have 3 mana sources. If you Brainstorm first... unless that card is LED and then you stack it so you can topdeck Rite of Flame or Dark Ritual... I don't see how you could win if the opponent is threatening a very fast clock. Its just a low investment 'oh shit' button play. It requires 2 perpetual mana sources, an IMS like Lotus Petal, 2 cards, and its a pass the turn play.

EDIT:
Also, its worth noting that you could well draw Chant in the 7 you draw off your Reforge the Souls.

[Lemnear]

The Point is that this play REQUIRE Brainstorm and passing a turn! Your opponent See this coming from miles ahead and can sculpt his hand.

[Amon Amarth]

I don't care how irrational it is, ban Insectile Abherration. Card seriously needs to fucking go take a hike.

Now if only they would ban cards for taking a giant fucking shit on the color pie then we'd be in business.

[Machahiko]

So, if you decide to go for it with TES against a player who might have a force of will and you have no protection at all you're taking a huge leap of faith. Sure, everything could just go well and you win, but if it doesn't work out, it won't be pretty. You've just played out your acceleration cards to cast ADN and it gets countered. Then you have to get burning wish and brainstorm together for this to work out, and even then if you draw brainstorm you'd most likely just play it out instead of hoping for burning wish.

To me Reforge the Soul seems to take a lot of setting up and then you can still just get your shit countered unless you also draw chant effect and play one in upkeep or rip a duress also to play the turn before reforging. Even then your opponent will get a new 7 besides you, and with your mana tapped etc. it'll be really hard to go off on the same turn I think.

I either need to see it in action to believe, or the deck should be changed drastically instead of just adding it into a currently existing decklist.

[DragoFireheart]

How many times have I said I'm not 100% certain it's not broken I just have yet to see evidence that it is and personally I don't think it will be.

- You're coming off as not wanting to believe otherwise despite what you claim. Just sayin.

Seriously, look at my other posts. I tested it and found it lacking far more often then it was "OMG broken" but I'm only one person. If over 1/3 of the people here feel it's broken I want to know what they know that I don't. What other measure is there of a Legacy card except the decks it goes in? I see a lot of people here spitting out reasons Mastery is so much like Time Walk but where are the lists? I had a lot of trouble making this card even half descent and I get the impression other people are having a similar problem.

- Like I said, your mind is made up. Discussing it further won't convince you. Seriously, look at MY other posts. I've posted plenty of arguments, but you claimed to have "tested it". You've made up your mind: arguing further is a waste of both of our time.

Look at Vacrix and a couple other people. They're all convinced of their own positions, but I guarantee you none of them will budge until tournament results show up. People are hilariously (more) stubborn on the Internet.

Agree to disagree because that's all we are going to agree on.

[Nihil Credo]

Now if only they would ban cards for taking a giant fucking shit on the color pie then we'd be in business.

The unintentional irony of making this complant in LEGACY - the format for those who love still playing with Dark Ritual and Red Elemental Blast and Sylvan Library - is difficult to overstate.