All B/R update speculation.

[Dice_Box]

Depths under Ideal circumstances is turn one. Manabond. Yep. It's stupid rare

Just because something can be answered does not mean it's healthy, safe or smart. If your playing a deck without selection going up against one that is built to abuse this, you need to find a 4 of naturally. It's not a good idea.

That said, it's sweet sideboard tec in Lands and any removal you spend on something I control with less than 20 power is ok by me.

[Fox]

Just because something can be answered does not mean it's healthy, safe or smart.

Aye, but is it worse than the ETB-crew largely pushing out non-ETB guys; and is it worse/less healthy than SCM flashback Surgical/Hymn/Kcomm/whatever leading to increasing TNN and [looser association] TNN/SnT/Eldrazi play?

[Dice_Box]

Land, 12/12, go. I would say that is worse than a SnT or hymm shit because it's so very little invested for so much. Your not talking about needing 3 cards here, and you are talking about something that will chew up more non Blue decks.

If your response is "You can find an answer" your almost guaranteed to be pushing the format more Blue. Because the decks that can find answers are those with cantrips and removal, not those with just removal.

Also, just because there is broken shit in this format does not mean we need more. "Hey shits already fucked" is not a good excuse for more fucked up shit. We have problems already in Legacy, let's not compound them.

Or you know, do, and I will rotate for the land. I'm likely playing one of the few remaining non Blue piles that can abuse this idea.

[Fox]

Your message box is full @Dice_Box

Anyways the thing is, the 2x 4-of Dreadnought/Torpor land isn't a winning deck idea, and it's certainly opposed to anything blue at 4x levels. There's the UG Crop Rot stuff with 1 actual copy [maybe], but you're mostly talking about a 4x + 1x phenomenon; this would be rare.

[Dice_Box]

It's empty now.

I don't care if we are talking 2 of or 4 of or a combo deck built around it, if you designed this and put it on my desk I would ask how does this make Legacy better? I don't think anyone has a good answer to that.

If you want to kill Snapcaster your better off targeting the yard anyway.

[LOLWut]

I'm gonna be that guy. In the name of all that is good and holy please learn the difference between "your" and "you're", Dice Box; I want to read your posts but my eyes are bleeding.

[Dice_Box]

I know the difference, I don't care.

[chunderbucket]

Just make it ETB tapped. Or have it not produce any mana, or artifact mana only. I mean we are talking about a hypothetical card that won't get printed any time soon given WotC's stupid new design policy, might as well go wild with suggestions.

I still stand by my Magus of the Chalice, Magus of the Trinisphere as well as Duospheres and Monospheres. I won't have a rest untl playing bad cards is actually good, and playing good (cheap) cards gets punished.

[morgan_coke]

Sometimes I wonder how much the printing of the Storm mechanic had to do with the rise to dominance of Blue/Brainstorm decks.

Before Storm decks combo decks were exactly that, a combination of specific cards that did something amazing. Post storm combo decks were giant piles of redundant spells that often could win off of just one card (Ad Naus, PiF, etc). When it was a mix of cards that needed to work together, you could fight that with discard or varied removal timed correctly. Once the changeover to Storm happened, that ceased being an option, so if you weren't packing FoW, you could count on a game one loss to combo. In turn, this shifted how both blue, and non blue decks were constructed main and sideboard - non-blue had to devote more resources to combo, even if they were already packing discard, and blue became a much more attractive choice, especially because you didn't have to worry as much about 1-for-2ing yourself with FoW being followed up by a second Hymn or something else nearly as often.

This effect in the metagame eventually got replaced by white taxing effects, so I guess after several years it's been a wash, but it's still something to think about.

TL;DR: ban every card with the word "Storm" on it, and all the OP blue creatures and Show and Tell, because WotC clearly will not stop printing giant dumb monsters, and we'll have a much more diverse format where a lot more things are viable in the Tier 1.5ish space and can occasionally take down a tournament.

[porcupinetreeman]

I think its pretty simple, ban these four and the format will be way more diverse.

Brainstorm
Ponder
Show and Tell
Dark Depths

[Lemnear]

So you don't play Dreadnought, you don't have years of experience with it, and you don't really get that a Torpor Orb land means very little to overall build. Thus we arrive at the point where a non-Dreadnought user says: people would be spamming both playsets of the Torpor land and 12/12s everywhere to success.

That's okay, most people don't actually know what constitutes a Dreadnought deck.

So you claim that a hypothetical future Deadnought Deck has to run Standstill, because the decktype ran Standstills 6 years ago before it vanished?

Guess UW Miracles was never a deck in the first place because UW control has to run Standstills and Fact or Fictions out of tradition, i guess?

Decks have to be reinvented and adjusted to the meta. It's bollocks to root arguments on outdated cards. You are like the people who evaluated Survival being a safe unban based on 8y old list without even considering that DRS is an obvious boon to the deck.

Also, the most cheese-based strat would probably be mono-black 2-card monty - which can't cast Stifle, and already has 8 lands off the bat that tap for colorless, so you kinda don't really want to tag on 4 more colorless (Wastelands on top of Torpor land/Stage in a deck without any manipulation). The premise that a land that lets you turn 1 a Dreadnought is too dangerous is kinda ridiculous.

...as its ridiculous to dismiss how easy FoW + T1 12/12 can win you games or how easy the cantrip shell it makes to assemble 2-card-combos.

The point of this whole tangent is that they banned the best non-ETB creature in legacy (DRS) and they have failed to replace his anti-SCM (challenging recursion) and anti-Strix (drain~not trading down a card vs deathtouch), and predictably such creatures are overrunning the format - and it's about time everyone gets a tool to hate em out.

I never questioned that. EtB value creatures already define modern and standart without viable hate to them. I guess its intended from WotCs side that these creatures replace spells in their classic form.

[Dice_Box]

I honestly don't know what peoples issue with Depths is. It's a good card, goes in good decks, but it's no Emrakul off a SnT or Sneak Attack.

[Fox]

So you claim that a hypothetical future Deadnought Deck has to run Standstill, because the decktype ran Standstills 6 years ago before it vanished?

Guess UW Miracles was never a deck in the first place because UW control has to run Standstills and Fact or Fictions out of tradition, i guess?

...as its ridiculous to dismiss how easy FoW + T1 12/12 can win you games or how easy the cantrip shell it makes to assemble 2-card-combos.

I never questioned that. EtB value creatures already define modern and standart without viable hate to them. I guess its intended from WotCs side that these creatures replace spells in their classic form.

My point is that people would play 2x 4-ofs is absurd, particularly in a blue shell where you're talking about how they'd Stifle and Wasteland to protect the Torpor land - you can't just add that and pretend it's a thing that wins games. There are cards which the archetype plays, particularly in the most common presentation, so you shouldn't be blown away when I start talking about Delver, Standstill, or land counts vs mana denial. Same thing with Force of Will - what blue cards sir? Sleeving up 4 more colorless lands = no Standstill, horrid Delver flips, lands presumably at 22 which kills Daze, which then makes mana denial (Stifle/Wasteland) look quite poor...and now we're down to a deck with FoW + a more questionable Brainstorm + now-dubious Stifle and not enough cards to alt-cast FoW with any kind of coherent plan and 8 colorless-only lands. Explain how they're casting FoW or denying mana in the 8 colorless land shell, because it sounds a bit ridiculous.

So again yes, the turn-1 Dreadnought would be 'a thing' that could happen - it's not a gameplan, it's not consistent, and it's not going to win reliably. You can't just add 4 more colorless lands and pretend like it's the same deck with all the same tools and start making credible inferences about how much of a problem it would be. Start adding cantrips and now you're talking about the crappiest SnT-analogue ever made, whose only benefit is sometimes you can make a 12/12 on turn 1??? Like sure that 22 land deck that can't really run Delver or Daze anymore at least has Stifle, Wasteland, enough blue for FoW with extra cantrips - this is an upgrade for the deck how?

As far as UW goes, Standstill and FoF are a great way to win less games than playing Counterbalance combo (while also being unable to ever beat the Counterbalance matchup). You're listing off worse strategies there, but doing the opposite and advocating for a garbage version of Dreadnought as the next best thing.

[Megadeus]

I honestly don't know what peoples issue with Depths is. It's a good card, goes in good decks, but it's no Emrakul off a SnT or Sneak Attack.

The only thing I have about Depths is that it took a super interesting control/prison lands deck and turned it into a combo prison thing. That's more on stage, but I always liked the 3 and 4 color lands decks hell-bent on full on resource denial, recurring EE every turn, and winning with a tar pit after you've exhausted your opponent or even just using academy ruins to Mill your opponent by putting Mox diamond on top every turn. That and it's given the rise to turbo Depths, just another derp I win combo deck for the apes. I don't think it's too good. Just uninteresting

[Mr. Safety]

I honestly don't know what peoples issue with Depths is. It's a good card, goes in good decks, but it's no Emrakul off a SnT or Sneak Attack.

I 100% agree, but I also don't think SnT or Sneak are a ban-worthy cards either. I'm usually the one slinging Depths (@Megadeus: admitted ape here, loving my 20/20's, lol. I have the body hair to back it up too, wanna see?) However, I don't mind facing against it with other decks as well. It's the kind of anomaly that should exist in Legacy IMHO (powerful strategy, but not oppressive.)

[Megadeus]

I 100% agree, but I also don't think SnT or Sneak are a ban-worthy cards either. I'm usually the one slinging Depths (@Megadeus: admitted ape here, loving my 20/20's, lol. I have the body hair to back it up too, wanna see?) However, I don't mind facing against it with other decks as well. It's the kind of anomaly that should exist in Legacy IMHO (powerful strategy, but not oppressive.)

I'm playing painter right now so I can't really complain about A+B combo. I just am salty. It is nice that there's an incredibly powerful non blue combo deck.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm playing painter right now so I can't really complain about A+B combo. I just am salty. It is nice that there's an incredibly powerful non blue combo deck.

Local player is playing mono-blue Painter, and it's pretty funny considering your comment. The fact that these types of combos can be effective in the current metagame is really encouraging, at least to me. Storm seems to be climbing back into the metagame as well, likely due to the decks preying on Miracles/Grixis giving them good matchups.

[taconaut]

No type of playable ETB hate exists, and b/c of that we're reaching a point where you can't win in legacy without non-ETB guys.

It's a bad land that endangers the whole idea of Delver, Standstill, Daze, Stifle, and Wasteland.

The whole point here is maybe it's time we got some ETB value hate to force them to diversify or suffer the consequences.

If your response is "You can find an answer" your almost guaranteed to be pushing the format more Blue. Because the decks that can find answers are those with cantrips and removal, not those with just removal.

Dice has this right - if anything, this land would produce MORE Grixis Delver - Delver doesn't have an ETB ability, neither does Gurmag, and Grixis is the most likely to be playing all the answers that work against 'Naught (Force, Push, Daze if they're on the play, Wasteland your ETB-hate land and Strix you anyway, even shit like Abrade or whatever). I think the deck trying to do the proposed land into Dreadnaught just wouldn't be good.

Also Let's be honest, who doesn't want to see Rogue Elephant and Greenbelt attacking into Strix and Crop Rot into Elephant Graveyard?

Meanwhile, this wouldn't just be "not that good," this would be stone cold unplayable.

Moreover, I question the motivation to incentivize "stat line" creatures. Delver is a "stat-line" creature, Gurmag is a "stat-line" creature...and why do we want to just bump a bunch of efficient, vanilla guys into each other? P3K or literally any limited format can provide that sort of battle, if you're interested in it.

I still stand by my Magus of the Chalice, Magus of the Trinisphere as well as Duospheres and Monospheres. I won't have a rest untl playing bad cards is actually good, and playing good (cheap) cards gets punished.

Now THAT'S an honest player. Those cards sound miserable, but at least you're upfront about wanting the format to be miserable for it's own sake, rather than pretending getting rid of cantrips or something will make the format better somehow!

Before Storm decks, combo decks were a combination of specific cards that did something amazing. Post storm combo decks were giant piles of redundant spells that often could win off of just one card (Ad Naus, PiF, etc). When it was a mix of cards that needed to work together, you could fight that with discard or varied removal timed correctly.

That's exactly what I love about Storm, though - it's more of a puzzle, and requires more than just assembling two particular cards. It what makes Storm the more interactive and interesting kind of combo deck, because it isn't just about knocking out one of two arbitrary pieces - you have to engage with it holistically. Grixis Delver vs. Storm and Miracles Vs. Storm pre-bannings were great examples of complex, interactive magic that was more than just, "here's A+B, do you have the Force or whatever?"

I think its pretty simple, ban these four and the format will be way more diverse.

Brainstorm
Ponder
Show and Tell
Dark Depths

At the risk of taking the bait here, what do you actually think this would change about the format? Why do you think it would make it better?

[Whitefaces]

Imagine a format without Brainstorm and Ponder but Griselbrand and Entomb are still legal, no thanks.

[schweinefettmann]

Imagine a format without Brainstorm and Ponder but Griselbrand and Entomb are still legal, no thanks.

Yea, seems weird. I’d almost say that ponder would be easier to ban only cuz brainstorm is such a easy card to misplay. Ponder has a lower skill threshold, but still is immensely good. Also, BS has fringe interactions with Leovold, sylvan library and dack fayden, notion thief.
I feel like the big legacy tournaments seem to have a pretty ok variety in decks though. Is the B/R list not working?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk