All B/R update speculation.

[DragoFireheart]

Reasoning and logic with no experience with the card is worthless.

- I agree.

[LOurs]

the results of tests are valuable when the reader has all the informations to appreciate the test. If the debate is around competitive playability, and i think it is, so only tests at a competitive level are interesting and valuable. Which means that it requires complete information about this test such as a full decklist, opponents (and tournament conditions...), decklist, pre/post sb and so on...
That kind of test is valuable and deserves to be used as an argument to say if the card is good or not. If these informations are not available, using the "test" arguement remains only a feeling to me. At this point, I have no idea if the cards will or wont have a big impact, but my feeling is they will. And I also remain very sceptic on any test results before they enter into tournaments, so I also disagree with the idea to ban them now.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

the results of tests are valuable when the reader has all the informations to appreciate the test. If the debate is around competitive playability, and i think it is, so only tests at a competitive level are interesting and valuable. Which means that it requires complete information about this test such as a full decklist, opponents (and tournament conditions...), decklist, pre/post sb and so on...
That kind of test is valuable and deserves to be used as an argument to say if the card is good or not. If these informations are not available, using the "test" arguement remains only a feeling to me. At this point, I have no idea if the cards will or wont have a big impact, but my feeling is they will. And I also remain very sceptic on any test results before they enter into tournaments, so I also disagree with the idea to ban them now.

Being skeptical is probably the best position to take if you have not tested the card in anything. My position is, and always has been, that the card was not broken in the testing I have done, and no where near better than Time Walk.

Will the card see legacy play? I don't know, but probably. I have not yet seen a list that can really take full advantage of the extra turn, but maybe in time some one can brew that up.

[DragoFireheart]

Being skeptical is probably the best position to take if you have not tested the card in anything. My position is, and always has been, that the card was not broken in the testing I have done, and no where near better than Time Walk.

Have you tested it with other decks besides the one in the ChannelFireball article?

[Lord Seth]

The onus is on those claiming "Ban" to show the card/deck is broken. The status quo is easy enough to demonstrate that a card/deck is fair in the format.

Indeed.
Number of cards preemptively banned: 2.
Number of cards NOT preemptively banned: 10,000+.

Cards not being preemptively banned is the norm. The burden of proof should therefore be on the people who think it should be preemptively banned. And the proof should be more I am seeing being offered so far.

Even if you say "well, sure, only 2 were preemptively banned, but others should have been in retrospect," the number of banned cards is less than 1% of all Magic cards ever printed, meaning the argument still stands.

[DragoFireheart]

Indeed.
Number of cards preemptively banned: 2.
Number of cards NOT preemptively banned: 10,000+.

Cards not being preemptively banned is the norm. The burden of proof should therefore be on the people who think it should be preemptively banned. And the proof should be more I am seeing being offered so far.

Even if you say "well, sure, only 2 were preemptively banned, but others should have been in retrospect," the number of banned cards is less than 1% of all Magic cards ever printed, meaning the argument still stands.

- The level of proof you/others want is not something that can be realistically achieved at this time (not that I ever claimed to have such proof/evidence). If your claim is "you lack suffice testing to show this needs a preemptive ban" then you are obviously correct. I don't think I was ever implying otherwise.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

- The level of proof you/others want is not something that can be realistically achieved at this time (not that I ever claimed to have such proof/evidence). If your claim is "you lack suffice testing to show this needs a preemptive ban" then you are obviously correct. I don't think I was ever implying otherwise.

You said "it is better than time walk."

I just want a list that I can test that can post similar results to flash/hulk.

Also, I played your list against maverick. All I can say is, the format is still not broken.

[DragoFireheart]

You said "it is better than time walk."

- I said "it's better than time walk in some situations".

I just want a list that I can test that can post similar results to flash/hulk.

- I don't have one and I never claimed to have one.

Also, I played your list against maverick. All I can say is, the format is still not broken.

- I believe you.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

- I said "it's better than time walk in some situations".

This is exactly what you said:

TM lacks that. In fact, it's better than Time Walk as you can cast it on your opponents turn. The fact that you have to cast it the turn you draw it as your first draw is a minor drawback, what with Brainstorm and Jace being in the format.

- I don't have one and I never claimed to have one.

Of course you don't because then we all would think its broken.

[DragoFireheart]

This is exactly what you said:

- Ah, I meant otherwise. Thank you for that and I apologize for not making that point clear. I sorta assumed people knew what I meant but I didn't post my thoughts clearly. Edited my post and I'll clarify here: the point I was trying to make was that because you have the ability to cast it on your opponents turn with some setup, you can have two-full turns will all of your mana open. In this way it's better than Time Walk: you can only ever cast Time Walk at sorcery speed. Time Walk is clearly a better card, but Temporal Mastery is better than it in some ways.

You can achieve this with Sensei's Divining Top. Spin the top to draw a card on your opponents turn with TM on top, cast TM ala it's miracle ability, bam: two turns in a row with all of your mana.

Of course you don't because then we all would think its broken.

- Well yeah, that is obvious.

[dontbiteitholmes]

- Ah, I meant otherwise. Thank you for that and I apologize for not making that point clear. I sorta assumed people knew what I meant but I didn't post my thoughts clearly. Edited my post and I'll clarify here: the point I was trying to make was that because you have the ability to cast it on your opponents turn with some setup, you can have two-full turns will all of your mana open. In this way it's better than Time Walk: you can only ever cast Time Walk at sorcery speed. Time Walk is clearly a better card, but Temporal Mastery is better than it in some ways.

You can achieve this with Sensei's Divining Top. Spin the top to draw a card on your opponents turn with TM on top, cast TM ala it's miracle ability, bam: two turns in a row with all of your mana.

Or if it was Time Walk instead of Mastery you could have more easily drawn and casted Time Walk last turn.
Time Walk - 1 Mastery - 0

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Or if it was Time Walk instead of Mastery you could have more easily drawn and casted Time Walk last turn.
Time Walk - 1 Mastery - 0

Exactly. Either way you lose a turn with that mana.

[DrJones]

Temporal Mastery is only marginally better than Time Walk in that it can't be countered with Spell Snare. Even if you get to play it at instant speed with Sensei's Divining Top, you don't get any board advantage in doing so.

Time Walk is in most cases better than this card because it doesn't exile itself, so you can recast it again and again with some combos.

[Lord Seth]

- The level of proof you/others want is not something that can be realistically achieved at this time (not that I ever claimed to have such proof/evidence).

Well the thing is, the cards that were pre-emptively banned or restricted (Mind's Desire and Memory Jar) were able to be proven to be too strong that early.

If your claim is "you lack suffice testing to show this needs a preemptive ban" then you are obviously correct. I don't think I was ever implying otherwise.

If you haven't been calling for a preemptive ban and instead are just speculating it might become strong enough to warrant banning, then I apologize for misunderstanding you. My issue is not that people say it might deserve banning (technically, almost any card might turn out to need banning if someone stumbles upon a sufficiently strong combo of some kind), but the claim that it deserves a pre-emptive banning.

[Vacrix]

My god I can't believe how much time people have spent arguing about theory instead of just testing the god damn card and seeing how it actually performs. Fuck this pre-emptive ban shit its not worth your time. Just test the card please and then we can stop bickering about something that nobody really understands yet with the exception of talking about what looks good on paper.

"Damn dude my engine looks so sick. My car must be really fast."
"Seriously man? It could just be a really big, inefficient engine. Just drive the car."
"No dude this engine is definitely like the greatest engine ever. Just look at the thing. Imagine what I could do what an engine this big. Is this even street legal?"
"Dude you have no idea how fast your car goes. Just get in the car and drive."
"No dude I'm admiring my absurdly large and clearly illegal engine."
*leaves

[JDK]

Wow, thanks for the Smart Burn list, now I have a lot of brainstorming to do.

[DragoFireheart]

So, how does everyone feel about paying one white for a Wrath of God?

Will Brainstorm survive this set?

[joemauer]

So, how does everyone feel about paying one white for a Wrath of God?

Will Brainstorm survive this set?

The fact that it is better than wrath of god irks me.

With all the potentially broken non sense this set has to offer, this is the card I hate the most. Nice board position, but guess what my Sensei's Top was hiding from you? That is right a one mana f'ing wrath of god. I don't care that you have Vengvines in play or a Scavenging ooze in your hand to recoup with because I did not kill your creatures. I put them somewhere irrevelent.

If I lose one match to this son of bitch removal card I will probably just rip my deck to shreds and give my opponent the finger. I guess won't have to worry about losing to this card again because I will only play combo decks while it is legal. Or control.

I would actually rather play against and/or with the former king of board sweepers: Balance. That card at least feels symmetrical(even though I know it is not). This card feels like an ultimate creature rape. WTF wizards of the coast, WTF!

Anybody else kinda feel the same way or am I the only one here?

[DragoFireheart]

The fact that it is better than wrath of god irks me.

With all the potentially broken non sense this set has to offer, this is the card I hate the most. Nice board position, but guess what my Sensei's Top was hiding from you? That is right a one mana f'ing wrath of god. I don't care that you have Vengvines in play or a Scavenging ooze in your hand to recoup with because I did not kill your creatures. I put them somewhere irrevelent.

If I lose one match to this son of bitch removal card I will probably just rip my deck to shreds and give my opponent the finger. I guess won't have to worry about losing to this card again because I will only play combo decks while it is legal. Or control.

I would actually rather play against and/or with the former king of board sweepers: Balance. That card at least feels symmetrical(even though I know it is not). This card feels like an ultimate creature rape. WTF wizards of the coast, WTF!

Anybody else kinda feel the same way or am I the only one here?

It's funny you mention SDT because they can WoG you on your turn...

...at the end of your turn.

Imagine this: a U/W miracle deck with tops and BS and Temporal Mastery and Terminus. For UW1, they WoG you on your turn and take two turns after the fact.

LOL!

[joemauer]

It's funny you mention SDT because they can WoG you on your turn...

...at the end of your turn.

LOL!

That just pisses me off more. This card even invalidates haste creatures.