View Poll Results: Most bannable card in Legacy? (not that they will touch it)

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192. You may not vote on this poll
  • Brainstorm

    16 8.33%
  • Force of Will

    4 2.08%
  • Lion's Eye Diamond

    35 18.23%
  • Counterbalance

    34 17.71%
  • Sensei's Divining Top

    103 53.65%
  • Tarmogoyf

    46 23.96%
  • Phyrexian Dreadnaught

    2 1.04%
  • Goblin Lackey

    4 2.08%
  • Standstill

    6 3.13%
  • Natural Order

    8 4.17%
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Thread: All B/R update speculation.

  1. #21381
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Monolith and Time Spiral count in my eyes. I feel like entomb is still even arguable power level wise, but I guess my thought is, are frantic search, Goblin recruiter, or earthcraft going to make the format worse than entomb? Like would they have as large as impact?
    I think Earthcraft is a massive joke, honestly, in the sense that I cannot fathom how it would be more impactful than Dragon or Vise. It's rather doubtful to me that Search or Recruiter are really all that powerful, but the List really isn't maintained in the sense of being recursively evaluated. In fact, to me, the List is barely maintained at all and only in the most broad of strokes. In the end, it's all rather "arbitrary" and whimsical really.

    I'd be willing to surmise that most of the reason Earthcraft is still on the Banned List is actually because it is on the Reserve List.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  2. #21382
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    i think frantic search should stay banned. it would empower reset high tide and more importantly spiral tide, and that doesn't improve the format.

    something like t3 high tide, frantic search -> time spiral with U floating and access to UU UU UU is not going to benefit the format.

    it's possible it could get used in some kind of reanimator deck, but that's unlikely. the only other deck that would benefit from frantic search a lot is the old replenish deck. that would be nice to have a non-creature-based-graveyard deck, but i don't think it's worth it.

    (i do miss that deck though!)
    -rob

  3. #21383
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    We've held a couple tourney's with Search, Recruiter and Earthcraft, survival, and Mind Twist legal. Search was the only card that really saw any use and it wasn't particularly good. I think the first event was won by straight up UB Reanimator (no search). Second event was goblins with like 2 recruiters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
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  4. #21384
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    I'd be willing to surmise that most of the reason Earthcraft is still on the Banned List is actually because it is on the Reserve List.
    I'm actually happy if they leave it out partly for that reason, no need to make the format less accessible which it would be if Earthcraft ended up in the best Elves lists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    Search was the only card that really saw any use and it wasn't particularly good. [...] Second event was goblins with like 2 recruiters.
    Seems like a contradiction. Goblins with recruiters won the event, so why would recruiter not matter? Would, by the way, be interesting to watch that tournament, for me and probably many others.. Also, if Survival wasn't played, we can't really draw any conclusions about this event, except for regarding the viability of Search and Recruiter. But maybe all cards were represented and fell out of favor?

  5. #21385
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    I'm actually happy if they leave it out partly for that reason, no need to make the format less accessible which it would be if Earthcraft ended up in the best Elves lists.
    Well, that's sort of the key, in the sense that the List isn't (and really should not be) derived from one methodology of construction.

    A List based off "pure" Empiricism, would be tyrannical and awful, since any card that it at all good would inevitably be banned. A "pure" Rationalist approach is also terrible, since we really could not say what the practical results would be. A "pure" Economic one would also be horrible, since it would be swayed by numerous factors outside the scope of Legacy. A "purely" Historical, or Historicism, List would be absolute nonsense, since past performance is not indicative of future results in a contingent sense. A "purely" Perceptual List, that is, one that is one made considering only what the format appears to be, say by public information of top 8 results, would also be tyranical, since it fails to encompass the whole of the metagame dynamic.

    So, what we actually get is some sort of "seemingly random" mish-mosh of all those things, plus, the confounding factor of whatever might qualify "Subjective perception" on behalf of the people who make the decisions as well. And all of these factors will not be "evenly applied" to all cases, which is likely the "best" approach, but one that could (and does) confound our collective interpretations.
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  6. #21386
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by H View Post
    So, what we actually get is some sort of "seemingly random" mish-mosh of all those things, plus, the confounding factor of whatever might qualify "Subjective perception" on behalf of the people who make the decisions as well.
    Yes, isn't this just pragmatism, though? It's how all companies and nations are run, in my very limited understanding. :) It's also how I make life choices or everyday small choices. I'm probably wrong in a couple of ways that more educated people (than myself) can explain to me, but I think the general observation should be valid.

  7. #21387
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    As I’ve mentioned in this thread probably half a dozen times before. Frantic Search shouldn’t be banned by any metric. Literally any argument you could make to defend it is nonsense.
    “Too Powerful” and “Free” are not really reasonable arguments especially compared to the other spells that are not restricted and way way way more powerful and way cheaper in the format.
    The format with Daze, force, Pierce, Thalia, etc etc etc is not one that should ever be afraid of not being able to handle a 3 mana instant that is less powerful than a bunch of other spells already in the format.

    It’s just a relic of a time long in the past and is kept there just for future “Prisoner’s exchange” value.

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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post

    Seems like a contradiction. Goblins with recruiters won the event, so why would recruiter not matter? Would, by the way, be interesting to watch that tournament, for me and probably many others.. Also, if Survival wasn't played, we can't really draw any conclusions about this event, except for regarding the viability of Search and Recruiter. But maybe all cards were represented and fell out of favor?
    Sorry just saying the Goblin player who won said afterwards that recruiter wasn't very important to his win. Earthcraft I'm pretty sure wasn't played at all besides like a 1-of in elves. Survival I cant remember who or what played it but I remember it was in the event. Twist was played a decent amount of decks, but nothing good came of it. High Tide with Search had a few copies and they seemed decent, but like has been said here, it takes a tier 3 deck to maybe tier 2
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  9. #21389
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    Also, if Survival wasn't played, we can't really draw any conclusions about this event, except for regarding the viability of Search and Recruiter.
    Survival was only allowed in one small event, which it won, and this was pre-Hollow One. The Tusk Council has since ruled Survival is sadly too good.

    Frantic Search made for pretty miserable games. Welcome back to 20+ minute High Tide turns. That said, it's likely not too good in current Legacy environment and shouldn't be banned. I just don't care to see Frantic Search return.
    Tusk up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Just fucking ban the 600 pound gorilla and be done with it. FFS

  10. #21390
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    I see, thanks for the clarifications, both of you!

  11. #21391
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by whienot View Post
    Survival was only allowed in one small event, which it won, and this was pre-Hollow One. The Tusk Council has since ruled Survival is sadly too good.

    Frantic Search made for pretty miserable games. Welcome back to 20+ minute High Tide turns. That said, it's likely not too good in current Legacy environment and shouldn't be banned. I just don't care to see Frantic Search return.
    Forgot it was banned the second event. That's probably why I don't remember specific people playing it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  12. #21392
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by pettdan View Post
    Yes, isn't this just pragmatism, though? It's how all companies and nations are run, in my very limited understanding. :) It's also how I make life choices or everyday small choices. I'm probably wrong in a couple of ways that more educated people (than myself) can explain to me, but I think the general observation should be valid.
    Well, I guess we can "summarize" all of that as "an approach that assesses the truth of meaning of theories or beliefs in terms of the success of their practical application" i.e. "Pragmatism" but really, it is still some actual mix of what I said above and maybe even some other factors as well. Consider, if Pragmatism is "a philosophical movement that includes those who claim that an ideology or proposition is true if it works satisfactorily, that the meaning of a proposition is to be found in the practical consequences of accepting it, and that unpractical ideas are to be rejected" then one, we certainly are operating from a very narrow sense of what would (or should) be "true" and also, we need to start with some a priori sense of what "satisfactorily" would be.

    In the case of Legacy, what is the "success" of the format based off of? That's really the problem. So, sure, we can look at what the effects of the banning or unbanning would be, or what we think they might be, but how do we arrive at what those things will be actually be? So, what would inform those conclusions? Really, by the sort of other ways of thinking I mentioned before, it would seem.

    Also, it really only gets us to the Is-Ought problem. Just because it "Is the case" that doing something is impractical, does not mean it "Ought to be the case" that it has no value in being done. In fact, we often do, as humans, plenty of things precisely because they are not practical. For example, play a card game with $10,000 dollar decks...
    "The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
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  13. #21393

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    i think frantic search should stay banned. it would empower reset high tide and more importantly spiral tide, and that doesn't improve the format.
    Why not?
    "You either die a Onesto-Player, or live long enough to see yourself become a Dredger"

  14. #21394
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctalor View Post
    Why not?
    It's a bad match up for Lands. ;-)
    It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
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  15. #21395

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReAnimator View Post
    As I’ve mentioned in this thread probably half a dozen times before. Frantic Search shouldn’t be banned by any metric. Literally any argument you could make to defend it is nonsense.
    “Too Powerful” and “Free” are not really reasonable arguments especially compared to the other spells that are not restricted and way way way more powerful and way cheaper in the format.
    The format with Daze, force, Pierce, Thalia, etc etc etc is not one that should ever be afraid of not being able to handle a 3 mana instant that is less powerful than a bunch of other spells already in the format.

    It’s just a relic of a time long in the past and is kept there just for future “Prisoner’s exchange” value.
    Yes, brainstorm should be banned too. The fact that the banned list isn't logically consistent doesn't mean that the arguments are nonsense.

  16. #21396
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    i think frantic search should stay banned. it would empower reset high tide and more importantly spiral tide, and that doesn't improve the format.

    something like t3 high tide, frantic search -> time spiral with U floating and access to UU UU UU is not going to benefit the format.

    (i do miss that deck though!)
    You can already do this with Candelabra and it's not close to playable.

  17. #21397
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    candelabra doesn't draw 2 cards.
    -rob

  18. #21398
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    candelabra doesn't draw 2 cards.
    How does drawing two cards matter AT ALL in your example?

  19. #21399

    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by mistercakes View Post
    candelabra doesn't draw 2 cards.
    Have you played tide consistently?

    If yes, do you believe your claim?

    And, even if tide gets to go off turn 3 most of the times, in which way is it still better than dark ritual based combo or show and tell?
    The fect that tide, in the dream scenario, has no business going off before turn 3 already makes the deck not good enough for legacy, it can be a decent tier 1.5, but never having free wins/easy wins makes it hard to compare with ANT/Show/Turn1.

    And believe me, a meta in which tide is the top tier combo would be much more healty then a meta in which the top tier combo wins turn 1 or 2
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  20. #21400
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    Re: All B/R update speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Noctalor View Post
    Have you played tide consistently?

    If yes, do you believe your claim?

    And, even if tide gets to go off turn 3 most of the times, in which way is it still better than dark ritual based combo or show and tell?
    The fect that tide, in the dream scenario, has no business going off before turn 3 already makes the deck not good enough for legacy, it can be a decent tier 1.5, but never having free wins/easy wins makes it hard to compare with ANT/Show/Turn1.

    And believe me, a meta in which tide is the top tier combo would be much more healty then a meta in which the top tier combo wins turn 1 or 2

    i played academy and dream halls when it was in standard. high tide in extended was the last time i played with time spiral + frantic search. (this was in 1998 or 1999, can't recall exactly.) the extended deck was a turn 3/4 deck. the main point is, the deck would be very consistent and would see play. however, nobody wants to play against this deck and it doesn't add any value other than another blue cantrip deck that plays by itself. i'd rather see show and tell and just die immediately.
    -rob

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