All B/R update speculation.

[clavio]

High Tide already is a consistent turn 3/4 deck and it sees no play. Frantic Search doesn't solve any of it's problems. Other decks that use it as a "free" careful study really would just rather use Careful Study or Entomb. It's not 1998 anymore the card is fine

[mistercakes]

Adds nothing favorable for the format as a whole. Maybe the cloud vine deck would get a new toy, that would be the only positive for me.

[Dice_Box]

Adds nothing favorable for the format as a whole. Maybe the cloud vine deck would get a new toy, that would be the only positive for me.

This is not an argument against anything. TNN adds nothing favorable to Legacy, that fucker is legal. Hell to be honest, Smokestack adds almost nothing favorable to Legacy and I'm still aloud to abuse it.

Is it safe, yes or no? That's all that matters. If they are not banning TNN or SnT for how much they suck to play against, the idea it would not be "Favorable" stops being a effective or impactful approach to reading the list.

[Zulabnar]

Really fun format

First 3 tier 1 deck

Miracle
Ur burn
Blade


4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 fow
2 jace

Bolt or sword
Tnn or terminus

Some draw card.

Gg

[porcupinetreeman]

Really fun format

First 3 tier 1 deck

Miracle
Ur burn
Blade


4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 fow
2 jace

Bolt or sword
Tnn or terminus

Some draw card.

Gg

Incorrect, you forgot snapcaster mage.

[MGB]

No. the format is now going to be nothing but Karn.dec vs Karn.dec.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

No. the format is now going to be nothing but Karn.dec vs Karn.dec.

Beat spec pricing on City of Traitors!!a!!!11!!1a!

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

[Fox]

Eh, if Karn really is all that broken b/c it can wish for a hard lock @MGB people will just start playing more sweet cards like Crash, Pulverize, and Abolish.

[Matsu]

So Karn, the Great Creator is really good with Mycosynth Lattice, instant lock just it cost 10 mana to do in one turn. Unless i am missing something and you can accelerate the process.
Ashiok shuts down all the fetchlands and GSZ decks.
To do a turn two Ashiok to effectively slow down your opponnent you need GSZ or BoP, because no DRS.
Some Stifle might be useful also.

But are those locks Legacy power level when you opponent can go Turn 1 Ape and show Emi or reanimate Sire of Sanity.
I am not sure.

[Dice_Box]

So Karn, the Great Creator is really good with Mycosynth Lattice, instant lock just it cost 10 mana to do in one turn. Unless i am missing something and you can accelerate the process.

A Post mana base.

Ashiok shuts down all the fetchlands and GSZ decks.
To do a turn two Ashiok to effectively slow down your opponnent you need GSZ or BoP, because no DRS.
Some Stifle might be useful also.

But are those locks Legacy power level when you opponent can go Turn 1 Ape and show Emi or reanimate Sire of Sanity.
I am not sure.

Nope, but some prick (read me) already went though his old binders and pulled out his copy of Lattice. So while I don't think the lock is great, it does look like great fun.

[Matsu]

A Post mana base.

Nope, but some prick (read me) already went though his old binders and pulled out his copy of Lattice. So while I don't think the lock is great, it does look like great fun.

So how fast can you get to 10 mana with Post, I assume the usage of Candelabra, so is turn 3 lock viable?
You will need a Challice on 1 to bypass the cantrip cartel. If this will produce a new deck in legacy or reanimate an Old One. I am all for it.
I think it is still better to die turn 4 or 5 to a properly setup combo/Lock than to draw your hand and die turn 0 to Ape and Show or reanimated Sire of Sanity.

[Zulabnar]

So Karn, the Great Creator is really good with Mycosynth Lattice, instant lock just it cost 10 mana to do in one turn. Unless i am missing something and you can accelerate the process.
Ashiok shuts down all the fetchlands and GSZ decks.
To do a turn two Ashiok to effectively slow down your opponnent you need GSZ or BoP, because no DRS.
Some Stifle might be useful also.

But are those locks Legacy power level when you opponent can go Turn 1 Ape and show Emi or reanimate Sire of Sanity.
I am not sure.

Metalworker is the answer.

But is this a tier 1 deck? i think a tier 2 maybe.

[Dice_Box]

But is this a tier 1 deck?

God no. The reason Eldrazi is so powerful is it both disrupts and forces a clock. That's the trick. A lock with no aggression is just a delaying tactic until you find your win or you die.

It's why Stax is fun but ultimately not a threat to Legacy. Sure I can drop a 5/5 off a Karn to win, but that's normally the plan after I set up a Tanglewire, a 3 ball and a Chalice. What if I get the 3 ball and a Chalice but never find Karn and you get your Angler down? Well... Wish I had replaced that Tanglewire with Smasher now.

When your looking at something like this don't ask, "How good is it" ask "Is there someone locally who will play it despite it being shit?" In my case, yes, yes I will.

[Zulabnar]

God no. The reason Eldrazi is so powerful is it both disrupts and forces a clock. That's the trick. A lock with no aggression is just a delaying tactic until you find your win or you die.

It's why Stax is fun but ultimately not a threat to Legacy. Sure I can drop a 5/5 off a Karn to win, but that's normally the plan after I set up a Tanglewire, a 3 ball and a Chalice. What if I get the 3 ball and a Chalice but never find Karn and you get your Angler down? Well... Wish I had replaced that Tanglewire with Smasher now.

When your looking at something like this don't ask, "How good is it" ask "Is there someone locally who will play it despite it being shit?" In my case, yes, yes I will.

I agree.

But after years i'm so tired of playing tier 2 decks.

[Barook]

Metalworker is the answer.

But is this a tier 1 deck? i think a tier 2 maybe.

You don't even need Metalworker. LED just works fine with Karn trigger on the stack to power out Lattice on the follow-up turn. Magical Christmasland is 2x Sol Land, Karn, double LED into T2 Lattice lock.

We'll have to wait and see how the meta shakes out and how the meta adapts, but I wouldn't be surprised if Karn gets banned down the line in a few years. It's power level is unreal. If a card adaption is so fast and widespread in Legacy, that's a good sign that something is wrong.

Not that I'm complaining, between Karn Chalice decks and Narset, cantrip decks are in for a world of hurt.

[FTW]

Ashiok shuts down all the fetchlands and GSZ decks.
To do a turn two Ashiok to effectively slow down your opponnent you need GSZ or BoP, because no DRS.

Turn 1 Ancient Tomb -> Chalice of the Void @ 1
Turn 2 Interplanar Beacon, Ashiok

Turn 1 Underground Sea, Chrome Mox imprinting a black or blue card -> Chalice of the Void @ 1
Turn 2 land, Ashiok

Turn 1 Ancient Tomb, Dimir Signet
Turn 2 land, Ashiok

Ashiok works best in a SuperFriends Stompy deck, where you can actually curve it out smoothly with other disruption. Karn could fit in the same deck.

Otherwise Karn seems pretty slow outside of a Stax win condition.

[Megadeus]

I feel like Karn in legacy is just the right power level. In vintage it seems much more busted being a 1 sided null rod in addition to being a wish for restricted artifacts

[Fox]

I feel like Karn in legacy is just the right power level. In vintage it seems much more busted being a 1 sided null rod in addition to being a wish for restricted artifacts

I think the issue is more that it’s inherently poor design. Why are we putting a 5 mana wish [minus enchant side] on a 4 colorless mana PW. Why isn’t this a 4 mana 1-sided Null Rod, card type artifact with like 1-2 make a wish counters?

[Megadeus]

I think the issue is more that it’s inherently poor design. Why are we putting a 5 mana wish [minus enchant side] on a 4 colorless mana PW. Why isn’t this a 4 mana 1-sided Null Rod, card type artifact with like 1-2 make a wish counters?

The one thing I don't like is that it's one sided. I hate asymmetrical effects when they're this powerful.

[Zulabnar]

You don't even need Metalworker. LED just works fine with Karn trigger on the stack to power out Lattice on the follow-up turn. Magical Christmasland is 2x Sol Land, Karn, double LED into T2 Lattice lock.

We'll have to wait and see how the meta shakes out and how the meta adapts, but I wouldn't be surprised if Karn gets banned down the line in a few years. It's power level is unreal. If a card adaption is so fast and widespread in Legacy, that's a good sign that something is wrong.

Not that I'm complaining, between Karn Chalice decks and Narset, cantrip decks are in for a world of hurt.

i will be suprised if a turn 4 lock counterable will be so strong to be banned.